Beemer-mark
Member
For my 45 Colt SAA with huge throats I use 20:1, my other 45 Colts and 38 spl, 16:1. These are plenty "hard".
I think the OP has rather unrealistic expectations on what his mdl 25 is going to do, over sized throats or not.
Big Throats Again? The Saga Continues.
- Thread starter keithherrington
- Start date
For my 45 Colt SAA with huge throats I use 20:1, my other 45 Colts and 38 spl, 16:1. These are plenty "hard".
I think the OP has rather unrealistic expectations on what his mdl 25 is going to do, over sized throats or not.
Love your 50 yard test. That is the true test of gun and ammo. Don't listen to those who would have you move in closer. That is the dumbing down of handgun shooting in America. More people have handguns, but few people can shoot them accurately. All over the internet and in some gun rags, folks are touting the "great accuracy" obtained by shooting at 7 yds...Give me a break! Hope you find a solution to your problem.
Stu1205
Member
I started a different post yesterday titled "Model 25-5 Questions."
There was some mention of throat size in that post, and then
I noticed this one too.
I do NOT reload my own ammo, and I do not quite undetstand
all the different types of ammo mentioned here to use in the 25-5.
In simple terms, which factory ammo would be best in the 25-5?
Would it be a plain lead, semi-jacketed, full metal jacket, soft point, or something else?
Thanks,
Stu
There was some mention of throat size in that post, and then
I noticed this one too.
I do NOT reload my own ammo, and I do not quite undetstand
all the different types of ammo mentioned here to use in the 25-5.
In simple terms, which factory ammo would be best in the 25-5?
Would it be a plain lead, semi-jacketed, full metal jacket, soft point, or something else?
Thanks,
Stu
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USSR
Member
With the large throats mentioned in the OP, if I was restricted to factory ammo, I would try this Winchester USA Cowboy Ammo 45 Colt (Long Colt) 250 Grain Lead Flat. With the soft lead and .455" bullets they use, you have your best chance for accuracy.
Don
Don
OP
keithherrington
Member
I don't have enough fingers on my hands and toes on my feet to count the number of 45 Colt guns I've owned in my life, most of them shooting the load I mentioned above. It has been my go to load for many years. Are there better loads for a particular gun? Maybe, but this one is consistently accurate in everything but this 25-5. I normally base line my shooting with my 625-5 which sports .453" throats. It shoots this load into 4-5" at 50 yards hand held from a bench. Yes, the extra inch of barrel gives me a bit of an advantage but not much of one. I've also had custom 45 Colts by Hamilton Bowen (about 7 over the years) that when set up with proper throats would shoot this load into 1.5" at 25 yards, again hand held from a bench. Years ago I posted pictures of these groups and the guns that shot them on this forum for discussion.
So, what are my expectations? At least on par with my 625-5, or 5-6" at 50 yards with no unexplained fliers. Do I occasionally throw a flier? Yup, I do, but not without it being called. As to accuracy shooting at 7 or 15 yards? Not my thing. It tells me absolutely nothing in terms of what the gun and load combination is capable of. I go by the first law of Bullseye shooting: never bother testing a slow fire load at 25 yards - it tells you nothing about how it will perform at 50 yards.
Keith
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Tom_R
Member
OK, dumb question, but please be patient with me as I am still learning.
If your throats are over sized on a Model 25, say a throat Size of .454 or .455, is the course of action to get a new Cylinder that has (Hopefully) all 6 throats ~.452?
Is that right?
So net/net, if a throat is undersized, ream it (Carefully and by Hand) to .452, but if it is ~.454 or larger, you pretty much need to get a new Cylinder as the bullet wont get a good fit into the barrel and accuracy will suffer?
Right?
If your throats are over sized on a Model 25, say a throat Size of .454 or .455, is the course of action to get a new Cylinder that has (Hopefully) all 6 throats ~.452?
Is that right?
So net/net, if a throat is undersized, ream it (Carefully and by Hand) to .452, but if it is ~.454 or larger, you pretty much need to get a new Cylinder as the bullet wont get a good fit into the barrel and accuracy will suffer?
Right?
Tom_R
Member
Also, is 45 acp and 45 colt the only caliber where the throat size issue regularly comes up? I don't see to recall this being an issue with the other popular Calibers.
OP
keithherrington
Member
Pretty much on the dot. Because of the extreme size of my throats I have no real confidence that I can get the gun to shoot well. Some here may disagree, but then that's OK. Because I don't collect but instead shoot my guns frequently, my best course of action is to replace the cylinder with a Model 29 non-recessed cylinder, have the rear of the barrel cut back slightly for the cylinder to fit properly (and closing up the .006" B/C gap to about .004"), have the cylinder rechambered with a tight 45 Colt reamer, and ream the throats to .453". The general rule of thumb is for the throat to be .001" larger than the bore. This works out perfectly because the bullets I use, Laser Cast, generally run close to .453". This is the combination I have on my 625-5 45 Colt and the gun shoots like a laser.
Keith
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USSR
Member
Not necessary if you cast, like I do. I have a 25-5 with throats between .454 and .455, and I cast .455" bullets and it shoots great.
Don
Tom_R
Member
OK, another dumb question, how can a .455 bullet go down a ~.452/.453.diamater barrel? Is the bullet shaved when it goes into the forcing cone?
Again, just trying to learn more here.
keith44spl
Member
Keith,
Back in the late seventies when the 25-5 hit the market, I bought one...
It would not group with a proven load for nuthing.
Throats were on the big side, but I went to cut an 11 degree taper in
the forcing cone and found the problem...One land of rifling was
completing gone, the entire length of the 4" barrel.
Re-barreled it and it shot like a house on fire....I no longer have that revolver,
a close personal friend has carried it for a couple of decades now.
But, just for the record....
Back in the late seventies when the 25-5 hit the market, I bought one...
It would not group with a proven load for nuthing.
Throats were on the big side, but I went to cut an 11 degree taper in
the forcing cone and found the problem...One land of rifling was
completing gone, the entire length of the 4" barrel.
Re-barreled it and it shot like a house on fire....I no longer have that revolver,
a close personal friend has carried it for a couple of decades now.
But, just for the record....
This revolver has over size throats as well, but a good barrel.
Shot this just today at 45 feet....My eyes are too old now for the longer ranges.
Remington .455 hollow base lead conical nosed bullets at near factory velocities....
6 Shots
Dave
P.S. This lit'l conumdrum has been on the charts for a whiles..........
I keep just a few handy...Jest in case.
.
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USSR
Member
Beemer-mark
Member
My earlier statement about your expectations was in regard to the revolver. I have (and had) a lot of 45 Colt revolvers. Both the S&W 25-5 and Colt SAA have over sized throats. But there's a lot more than throat sizing that make a gun not shoot worth a hoot. Your on the right track on these posts, send your gun to someone like Bowen, get it re-barreled, new cylinder, timing & lock up fixed and it might put 6 bullets in 3" at 50 yards. Or buy a newer 625 for less than a $1K and have the same results. I cast my own bullets and I can get decent results with a Colt SAA but I gave up on two 25-5s. If I could have got the results at 25 yds you're getting at 50yds I would have kept them.
On bullets the best results is a either a 255 grain LFRN Saeco 955 or a Keith style 270 grain cast from 16:1 or 20:1 which has a hardness of around 10 (same as wheel weights). Start with 16 grains of 2400. Max around 16.5. Works for my SAA.
On bullets the best results is a either a 255 grain LFRN Saeco 955 or a Keith style 270 grain cast from 16:1 or 20:1 which has a hardness of around 10 (same as wheel weights). Start with 16 grains of 2400. Max around 16.5. Works for my SAA.
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OP
keithherrington
Member
Got my samples of Bryan Reece's 270 grain Keith GC bullets. Shooting them tomorrow with 8.5 and 9.0 grains of Unique to see how they perform. They are sized .454" and are much longer than the RNFP 250s I've been shooting. According to Reece, the length of the bullet has a lot to do with its accuracy. We'll see.
Keith
Keith
andyo5
Member
Aces and eights, keith? I always heard that the fifth card was a ten.
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I reckon I was lucky. I bought a new 4" blue M25-5 in 1980 and .452" jacketed bullets "stick" as I drop them into the chambers. It shoots fine.
I round butted this revolver and carried it as a duty gun for a couple of years. Sold it to my lieutenant at the PD and then bought it back from him in 2008. He passed in 2009. It ain't going anywhere now!
I round butted this revolver and carried it as a duty gun for a couple of years. Sold it to my lieutenant at the PD and then bought it back from him in 2008. He passed in 2009. It ain't going anywhere now!
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I have an old Lyman #454424 four-cavity mould. As-cast diameter of the 260 grain flatnose (wheelweight alloy, 11-13 BHN) bullet are
around .456"-.457". I run these through a .461" .45-70 bullet die in a SAECO sizer/ lubricator so that the bullets are lubricated only, not sized.
One can experiment with different diameters and alloy hardness and hope for obturation with undersized bullets, but I've found initial good bullet fit (usually on the tight side) works sooner and better. With soft, medium, or hard .452" or .454" bullets, I never really got passable accuracy with the oversized S&W cylinder throats.
I used a popular Unique load for years in my 25-5s; good accurate load, but I've recently gone to a max. load of HS-6 for about the same velocity as the Unique load but with even better accuracy. I don't use hot loads in a 25-5 and certainly wouldn't recommend using oversize bullets for such loads in any .45 Colt with cylinder throats of proper diameter.
around .456"-.457". I run these through a .461" .45-70 bullet die in a SAECO sizer/ lubricator so that the bullets are lubricated only, not sized.
One can experiment with different diameters and alloy hardness and hope for obturation with undersized bullets, but I've found initial good bullet fit (usually on the tight side) works sooner and better. With soft, medium, or hard .452" or .454" bullets, I never really got passable accuracy with the oversized S&W cylinder throats.
I used a popular Unique load for years in my 25-5s; good accurate load, but I've recently gone to a max. load of HS-6 for about the same velocity as the Unique load but with even better accuracy. I don't use hot loads in a 25-5 and certainly wouldn't recommend using oversize bullets for such loads in any .45 Colt with cylinder throats of proper diameter.
OP
keithherrington
Member
Test results
I'm considering having the cylinder redone by Bowen once I get a new non-recessed Model 29 cylinder from Brownells. Currently, they're on backorder. That will resolve all of these issues and allow me to use the ammo I have already, rather than launch into an endless series of experiments with various bullets and loads.
Keith
I'm considering having the cylinder redone by Bowen once I get a new non-recessed Model 29 cylinder from Brownells. Currently, they're on backorder. That will resolve all of these issues and allow me to use the ammo I have already, rather than launch into an endless series of experiments with various bullets and loads.
Keith
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I have a 25-5 with .458 throats.
In looking on line for a 44 cylinder to bore out I stumbled across a 625 cylinder at Cylinder and Slide. The tech there said the throats are .452 so I sent in the revolver for them to fit to the cylinder.
$100 for the cylinder and another $100 to fit. I thought that sounded like a cheap fix and I will still have the original cylinder if I ever want to sell it.
The tech said they have a few more 625 cylinders on hand.
Greg
In looking on line for a 44 cylinder to bore out I stumbled across a 625 cylinder at Cylinder and Slide. The tech there said the throats are .452 so I sent in the revolver for them to fit to the cylinder.
$100 for the cylinder and another $100 to fit. I thought that sounded like a cheap fix and I will still have the original cylinder if I ever want to sell it.
The tech said they have a few more 625 cylinders on hand.
Greg
OP
keithherrington
Member
Thanks for the tip. I have a 625-5 where those cylinders I think came from and it is a tack driver. But since I have a 629 cylinder already I'm not going to take that approach. I don't like the Pinto look and I've decided not to hard chrome or Metaloy the gun. It's too beautiful in its current blue finish. I will call them tomorrow however.
Keith
