Apex J Frame Firing Pins

The following comment about J-Frame Apex Firing Pins in the "1980 to the present" Revolver sub-forum prompted me to post this thread.

"I have had galling in all of their firing pins, which causes them to stick in the firing pin channel"

Recently I installed two of the Apex Firing Pins in J-Frames and when doing so noticed that the finish was a copper color, which made me wonder what type of coating it was and why they applied it to their pins. I also noticed that it was kinda "grippy" but figured it would wear in over time.

Prior to installing the third firing pin in another J Frame I decided to take a little of the liquid Flitz, which is weaker than the paste version and put it on a paper towel to see how the copper colored coating responded. I was a little surprised to see that it started coming off fairly quickly because it usually takes 30 or 40 seconds for the liquid Flitz to start "working", especially when applying it by hand.

What really got my attention was that within the first minute of working the Flitz I had two flakes of the finish break off. These weren't big flakes mind you, but big enough to possibly cause problems in the firing pin channel.

After seeing this I decided to remove the copper coating on the remaining pins I intend to install and go back and remove the two already in guns & do the same.

When I removed the two pins already installed, which had maybe 100 dry fires each on them (w/Snap Caps) I seen what I guess could be described as galling in the notches for the Retaining Pins. Another way to describe it would be "gouging", which was only through the copper coatings and didn't effect the stainless steel surfaces underneath which could clearly be seen below the "gouges." These gouges weren't clean edged witness marks left by the Retaining Pins but had saw tooth like edges, as if the finish was breaking off.

Prior to installing the "cleaned up" firing pins I made sure to flush, then blow out the firing pin channels since I was concerned where the "gouged away" pieces of coating might have ended up.

Previously I had mentioned that the copper colored coating felt "grippy", this was even after applying Eezox to them which acts as a protective coating & dry lube. After removing the copper colored coating & reapplying Eezox it's hard to pick the little buggers up because they are so slippery.

I should have taken some photos of the gouges, I thought about it at the time, but do have some after photos. You may see some vestige's of the copper coloring, which are in the notch & around the base of the pin portion of the part. My goal wasn't to remove it all, but enough to make sure that the flaking I had seen couldn't happen again. Each pin took about 2-3 minutes to work using Flitz & a Dremel Tool with a small felt wheel at slow speed.





If it turns out that I compromised the integrity of these pins by removing the coatings then I probably wouldn't use the Apex Pins since, based on my experience, they come with a coating that doesn't seem to want to wear off gracefully in some areas. Based on the quote I started this thread with I may not be alone but don't know for sure since I don't know exactly what they had seen or where the "galling" they mentioned occured. My main concern is that they said they had experienced Apex firing pins that stuck in the firing pin channels, which is exactly what I thought could happen.

That is the reason, I will not use their pins. I have e-mailed them about this, and got no response. I thought I was the only one with this problem.
But I would be willing to bet, if you use Apex pins, and take it out, you will see galling/gouging, of the pin, and it will be hard to remove from the channel. It may not be causing any problems, but I won't take the chance, especially, in a carry gun.

Does anybody know what the stock coating/finish is on these Apex parts?
Do the (semi-auto) M&P parts have the same coating/finish?

allglock said:

But I would be willing to bet, if you use Apex pins, and take it out, you will see galling/gouging, of the pin, and it will be hard to remove from the channel.

Click to expand...

Now that you mention it, on one of the two pins that I removed I had one heck of a time getting it out and for a few minutes the issue seemed to be in doubt.

The pin I had a hard time getting out moved freely, up to a point, then stopped but I thought the back portion was hitting the frame (M642). Having removed pins five times in less than a week, twice from that gun alone, that was the only one that gave me any trouble at all.
It more than made up for those other times being so easy....

When I reinstalled a "cleaned Apex pin" in that same channel, which had been flushed & blown out, it dropped right into place.

Mine have definite galling/gouging. I tried to polish it, but the gouge is still there. I have been trying to get a decent picture, but can't get good focus. I will keep trying.

Here is what happened to EVERY one I installed:
Either they are out of spec. or he is using the wrong steel for these pins. Apex even states that they are hardened.
I installed about 5 or 6 of these, and this happened to all of them! They are very difficut to remove from the frame after this happens.

After reading the above posts, I checked my 2. The only thing I can see is the copper finish has worn off the face of the pin ( one completely and the other- just the bottom half ). No problems getting them in or out.

allglock said:

Here is what happened to EVERY one I installed:

Click to expand...

All I see is a slight raised spot, probably from hitting the retaining pin. That should take 10 seconds with a stone to fix. Are you using the Competion Kit with a full strength mainspring?

tomcatt51 said:

All I see is a slight raised spot, probably from hitting the retaining pin. That should take 10 seconds with a stone to fix. Are you using the Competion Kit with a full strength mainspring?

Click to expand...

These are the "ignition kit" firing pins, with 8lb. spring.
S&W firing pins dont do this..
Why should I have to take a stone to it?? I am just warning people about the possibilities here.

Did the firing pin still move freely in it's slot with the retaining pin in place with everything assembled?

tomcatt51 said:

Did the firing pin still move freely in it's slot with the retaining pin in place with everything assembled?

Click to expand...

I dont really remember. I just remember them being very hard to remove.

Thanks for your input allglock. The gouges I found in the copper coating were in the same area,
back half of notch, as the galling in your photos.

I agree with another poster that this galling could easily be stoned & polished out, but the main
reason I purchased 5 of the Apex Pins was added piece of mind on my carry guns.

Now if I run with the Apex Pins I have to wonder, how often, or how many rounds I can put thru a gun
before I should check them, which means I'm kinda back to square one.

Off hand do you happen to know when S&W lengthened their Firing Pins?

If you do, do you know if the "lengthened pins" received a new part # and what that might be??

ogilvyspecial said:

Thanks for your input allglock. The gouges I found in the copper coating were in the same area,
back half of notch, as the galling in your photos.

I agree with another poster that this galling could easily be stoned & polished out, but the main
reason I purchased 5 of the Apex Pins was added piece of mind on my carry guns.

Now if I run with the Apex Pins I have to wonder, how often, or how many rounds I can put thru a gun
before I should check them, which means I'm kinda back to square one.

Off hand do you happen to know when S&W lengthened their Firing Pins?

If you do, do you know if the "lengthened pins" received a new part # and what that might be??

Knowing that S&W felt the need to lengthen their pins is why I went with the Apex, after all,
Companies usually don't change their parts unless it's for cost reduction, continuous improvement,
or they have a specific problem they are addressing.

If S&W hadn't taken this step then I wouldn't have even bothered to mess with my firing pins.

Click to expand...

Agreed! Like I said, I have a titanium pin from 2008 and it measures .484 (which is way too short IMO). I then read that S&W were making them longer, so I ordered one just to find out. The new one I just got measures .491, which is just barely acceptable IMO.... So, I would say its safe to use S&Ws pins again.
I have purchased a few old style stainless S&W pins, and have found them to be either .491 or .494 in length. I put the .494s in all my newer S&Ws, just to be on the safe side.
I will stay away from Apex for now. I belive it is just a machining issue on their part. I dont think the grove is machined out low enough?

ogilvyspecial said:

Now if I run with the Apex Pins I have to wonder, how often, or how many rounds I can put thru a gun before I should check them, which means I'm kinda back to square one.

Off hand do you happen to know when S&W lengthened their Firing Pins?

If you do, do you know if the "lengthened pins" received a new part # and what that might be??

Click to expand...

The S&W firing pins all have the same part #. When I've ordered recently, Midway or Brownell's, I've gotten the "good ones", .495" long with a hemispherical tip. For a while all you got was variations of the "iffy" 485" pin.

I'm not sure of the exact chronology. My 66-5 and 14-7 both came with steel FMFP's. Apparently pre-dating the titanium .495 pins. Then for various reasons we got .485 pins in different tip shapes (that sometimes were fine and sometimes weren't) and now we're back to .495 titanium with a hemispherical tip.

I've put quite a few rds (combined, at least 30,000) thru my 625-8 and 14-7 and 66-5 (yes, they're FMFP) with Apex firing pins with no issues. I do prefer the ~.495" S&W firing pins but only because they're lighter being titanium.

The "good" S&W pins seem to have a length range of .492 to .495, a hemispherical tip, and are titanium. The ones I've rcd recently have been consistently .495.

Hope I've got that close to right. Maybe other posters can add more.

Wow Murphy left me alone on this one! When I was looking for a spring kit for the J-frame, Apex was just announcing their kit but it wasn't yet available, I went with the Wolff kit. I was very very happy with it but wondered what 3 times the cost of the Wolff Kit would buy me from Apex. Someone finally did a comprehensive text with 3 different spring kits and convinced me I had made the right choice. Here is the link to it http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-sm...erican-j-frame-spring-test.html#post136202849

This post here should convince a few more people that you don't always get what you pay for!! $8.00 for the Wolff Kit or $25 for the Apex...hmmm

Hi guys,

I'd like to take just a minute to address the issues brought up in this thread.

Our revolver firing pins are not coated at all, they're raw stainless steel that's been heat treated. The heat treat process gives us that "Copper-ish" color that you see on them. This is not a coating that should "flake off" as described. There is no reason that I can think of where anything should flake off the firing pins.

The raised up lip you're talking about does interest me though, I haven't seen that on any of our pins as of yet. We designed the firing pin to have plenty of clearance in the firing pin channel, so that debris could easily pass by and clear out.

This is the first we've heard of issues with our firing pins in the J-Frame kits. If you wrote us an email about the issue, it was not received. If you write us an email and don't receive a response within a few days, it may be best to call us in the shop to get an immediate response. Some times, emails don't go through.

I would like an opportunity to have a look at these pins that have been troublesome for you guys. If our products aren't right, we definitely want to know about it so we can make it right.

Scott @ Apex

tomcatt51 said:

The S&W firing pins all have the same part #. When I've ordered recently, Midway or Brownell's, I've gotten the "good ones", .495" long with a hemispherical tip. For a while all you got was variations of the "iffy" 485" pin.

I'm not sure of the exact chronology. My 66-5 and 14-7 both came with steel FMFP's. Apparently pre-dating the titanium .495 pins. Then for various reasons we got .485 pins in different tip shapes (that sometimes were fine and sometimes weren't) and now we're back to .495 titanium with a hemispherical tip.

I've put quite a few rds (combined, at least 30,000) thru my 625-8 and 14-7 and 66-5 (yes, they're FMFP) with Apex firing pins with no issues. I do prefer the ~.495" S&W firing pins but only because they're lighter being titanium.

The "good" S&W pins seem to have a length range of .492 to .495, a hemispherical tip, and are titanium. The ones I've rcd recently have been consistently .495.

Hope I've got that close to right. Maybe other posters can add more.

Click to expand...

I dont know what you are measuring with, but I am using a digital caliper. I just received a new firing pin about a week ago from S&W, after they were on backorder, so I know its the newest out there and it measures .491, and has the round head on it.

Flork said:

Hi guys,

I'd like to take just a minute to address the issues brought up in this thread.

Our revolver firing pins are not coated at all, they're raw stainless steel that's been heat treated. The heat treat process gives us that "Copper-ish" color that you see on them. This is not a coating that should "flake off" as described. There is no reason that I can think of where anything should flake off the firing pins. I would like to note that the ones I have are from the originals, when they were first introduced. I dont know if that would make a difference or not?

The raised up lip you're talking about does interest me though, I haven't seen that on any of our pins as of yet. We designed the firing pin to have plenty of clearance in the firing pin channel, so that debris could easily pass by and clear out.

This is the first we've heard of issues with our firing pins in the J-Frame kits. If you wrote us an email about the issue, it was not received. If you write us an email and don't receive a response within a few days, it may be best to call us in the shop to get an immediate response. Some times, emails don't go through.

I would like an opportunity to have a look at these pins that have been troublesome for you guys. If our products aren't right, we definitely want to know about it so we can make it right.

Scott @ Apex

Click to expand...

I will send them all back, and I would like my money refunded... hope that is an option?
Most people would not have a reason, to take them out. I noticed it on the first one I installed, and then proceded to take the rest out, after seeing the first one.
I would like to note that these were from the original pins, when they were first introduced. I dont know if that would make a difference or not?

Based on the information garnered from this thread I just went and ordered some factory
S&W Firing Pins thru Midway, although they will be on back-order until early April.
To me this back-order status is a good thing, it means that Midway has flushed out their
inventory so whatever they get should be the most current variation (S&W #229520000.)

It was kinda hard to swallow the fact that I can get 4 of the S&W Pins for
about the price of one Apex, although the latter does come with a spring.
In order to justify my outlay of money on the Apex Pins I will probably try
using the Apex Springs with the S&W Pins just to make myself feel better.

Someone mentioned the Apex Main & Rebound Springs so I'll comment on those.
I found it odd that Apex doesn't call out their spring weights, saying that it would confuse the issue.
To me, not knowing adds confusion, not removes it.
I guess it's a non-issue really since they only give you one of each.

Because of this I only bought two of the Apex "full kits" then switched over to Wolff Springs.
Last night I did my first "trigger job" using the Wolff Springs and afterwards didn't like the results.
No problem, I went back to my spring packs and messed around with different weights until I found
the right combination, an option I didn't have with the Apex, unless I mixed & matched with the Wolff Springs.

One of the reasons I'm doing this is to learn about my revolvers and by having no choices with the Apex,
or what weights gave me the results I got with their kits, it isn't much of a learning experience.
Besides that, I like to know exactly what I'm putting in a gun that my wife & I are staking our lives on.

To be honest, I personally don't like the feel of the trigger reset with the Apex,
but, without guessing, I don't know which weight Wolff rebound spring
I should try first, not knowing what weight the Apex spring is.

Oh well, live & learn. Now that I have a number of Wolff rebound springs in weights
from 13 to 16 lbs and main springs from 8 to 9 lbs I can mix & match to my hearts content,
learning along the way, until I find the right combination(s) that meets my needs
for a specific gun, that will fill a specific role. As opposed to the "One size fits all approach."

Flork said:

Hi guys,

I'd like to take just a minute to address the issues brought up in this thread.

Our revolver firing pins are not coated at all, they're raw stainless steel that's been heat treated. The heat treat process gives us that "Copper-ish" color that you see on them. This is not a coating that should "flake off" as described. There is no reason that I can think of where anything should flake off the firing pins.

The raised up lip you're talking about does interest me though, I haven't seen that on any of our pins as of yet. We designed the firing pin to have plenty of clearance in the firing pin channel, so that debris could easily pass by and clear out.

This is the first we've heard of issues with our firing pins in the J-Frame kits. If you wrote us an email about the issue, it was not received. If you write us an email and don't receive a response within a few days, it may be best to call us in the shop to get an immediate response. Some times, emails don't go through.

I would like an opportunity to have a look at these pins that have been troublesome for you guys. If our products aren't right, we definitely want to know about it so we can make it right.

Scott @ Apex

Click to expand...

Scott, thanks for your input in this matter.
I was in & out of the room while doing my last post so never seen the above response before posting it.

Before I give you a recommendation let me tell you where I'm coming from.
For over 10 years prior to retiring I worked quality in a GM Engine Plant where I had to root cause
quality issues on a daily basis.
This encompassed many different issues, from thread pitch & angle to the quality of the print-a-seal
on paper & metal gaskets, as well as many other issues like finish quality & hardness.
Our Case Dept. (Engine Blocks) took raw castings then "sliced & diced" them to close tolerances
so the issues I dealt with were many & varied.

Based on that experience and the fact that I personally seen a flaking issue with
the hardness coating of your Firing Pins I would make this recommendation.
You either need to revisit your process or have a sit down with your supplier.

I've always looked at any issue objectively and this one is no exception so please take my
comments in the spirit they were intended.

Now that it looks as if I've removed the hardness from my pins, which was prompted by the flaking,
and probably compromised the integrity of my pins it looks like they are a done deal. I'm still trying to figure out, the flaking issue aside, why the hardness coating came off so quickly & easily.

Like I said in my last post, live & learn.