I have seen numerous references about various gunsmiths somehow using a Babbitt bar to move the point of impact of a fixed sight revolver. Yet I haven't seen any detailed descriptions about exactly how that is/was done. Can anyone explain what the method was? And does it work?

I'd guess they are soft, lead alloy punches.

A babbit bar is bar of rather soft bearing alloy, sort of a hard lead alloy. As for the method, basically you clamp the frame of the revolver in a vice with shaped hardwood inserts and whack the barrel so that the frame is bent slightly at the barrel mount. Naturally this approach did require that the Smith doing the work "have the touch" because otherwise he'd be bending that frame back and forth until it cracked. To be blunt not something for a kitchen table gunsmith and something that still makes me cringe at the thought of. Aren't you glad that today the Lathe is quite common and we can "re clock" a barrel using a technique that allows us to make adjustments down to the 1/10,000 inch.

I am by all means not an expert, but have read that a babbitt bar is like a round or triangular lead alloy rod that it used by a skilled S&W gunsmith to straighten a front sight blade, extractor rod or an overtorqued frame. This gunsmith needs to know how much energy to use and where to exactly apply the striking force to accomplish this. The lead alloy of the rod is supposidly not to cause damage to the finish of the revolver. This sounds way old school and definately out of my league.

It must have been before my time, I never herd of bending frame
to adjust point of impact. I have herd of clamping barrel and using a babit punch to bend sight for windage.

I have been trained in the use of and when not to use the babbit bar. It is not used to correct the clocking of a revolver barrel. It is used in the conjunction of the correct gauges to realign a bent frame. It can be used to correct the correlation of POA and POI, usually in fixed sight revolvers. I have used it to correct a frame badly warped by the 'bubba hammer handle' method of removing a barrel from said frame. I have used it to correct a top strap bent down to touching the cylinder. I have used it to bring the POI closer to POA. There are other more minor uses around the pistolsmith work bench. It does take some muscle memory for gauging the amount of force to be used in any given instance.

FYI, merely wacking a frame back into alignment is not the final solution. Bend steel and then bend it back and one dimension or another will 'grow'. That is going to have to be taken into account with head space, barrel/cylinder gap and timing. Pre model numbered frames will be of slightly 'softer' steel and will bend easier. Care must be taken when moving from a later frame and getting use to the harder blows necessary to achieve desired results to an older softer frame requiring the same corrections. It takes a much softer blow to move an older frame the equivalent distance as compared to a newer frame.

Many years ago, custom quality shotgun makers 'regulated' the barrels of a side by side or an overunder by wacking the barrel in the appropriate spot with a lead babbit hammer. There were specialists in those custom houses that did only that job.

I once walked into a Babit Bar. The patrons quickly noticed I was a proto human and began throwing celery sticks at me. I rekon they were drinking bloody marys. I high tailed it out of there, slipped on a carrot stick and busted my watch. I never returned. I later learned Jessica Babit was performing there. Some years on I found out the proprietor Roger Babit was busted for smuggling cocaine. He was eventually acquitted. The bar fell on hard times and closed down. Some months later 3M bought out the bar and it is now the largest Scotch Tape store in America.

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NRA Benefactor

I have an older reblued I frame 32 that shoots a bit off. Guns not worth a lot. I have been sent clear instructions on where to strike it and appox size of Babbitt bar etc. Understand the process and what is happening. But, just can't get myself to commit to smacking the gun.

Before we go too too far down this road of beating up revolvers with babbitt bars, know that that's not what they were designed for. Babbitt is designed as a bearing material. About 100 years ago it was common for machine tools to be made with plain bearings made of babbitt. The bar part was just a convenient way to transport the babbitt to the tool. Where upon, the babbitt was melted into a built in mould surrounding the ferrous journal that needed support. It's a nearly dead skill set and I've hardly given it justice.

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NRA Benefactor

I purchased my Model 65-3" RB while at the S&W armorers' school back in the 80s. After fixing a minor internal flaw. I discovered that the gun didn't quite shoot to the sights. One of the S&W armorers took the gun and "babbitized" it, to use his lingo. Afterward, the gun always shot to the sights.

My feeling is that taking a babbit to a revolver requires experience and skill. The amount of babbitizing needed is always too small to see with the naked eye so I would be inclined not to try it myself.

Incidentally, the 7-day revolver armorers' school I attended did not teach the use of the babbit.

Gun goes in vice, babbit bar used to whack barrel towards appropriate direction . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

My Babbitt bar was also included in the gunsmith kit I received at the S&W armorers school in the early 80's. Fun times as we were introduced into making adjustments on various parts of model 64's which were for an unknown PD order. I will say that I turned out a few mighty fine revolvers in that two week period.

Actually, the Babbit tool approved for S&W 'wacking' is a bar unto itself. It is just a round bar of lead alloy about 3/4" to 7/8" in dia. and about 4" to 5" long.

Being a lead bullet caster since about the age of 18 (a looong time ago) I started seeing other possibilities for the use of lead blocks on my gunsmithing workbench. I now have two Lyman type cast ingots of lead laying on my bench at all times. The tops have various sized "V" grooves or square grooves to aid in holding a part or a gun while doing something else to that part or gun. I also have a casting of lead out of the bottom of a round bottomed melting pot laying there that I use as much as the ingots. It looks like a little low igloo of lead. It is perfect to aid in backing up a small part that is handheld while being polished, sanded, filed, etc. ..... When my lead 'helpers' get too beat up and tending to be less usable than usual, I just recast them and start over. ....

Fascinating. I had assumed they would be used for adjusting sights and not much else. Thanks guys.
Some old automotive engines were called babbitt beaters for their penchant of hammering the babbit bearings. There are tales of roadside repairs using a bit of leather from a strap or belt to replace a ruined bearing.

I was instructed on the use of a Babbitt bar at schooling provided by Both Colt and Smith & Wesson.
This was back in the early 1950's.
The learning curve was SLOW, and somewhat tedious...but it proved to be quite good in solving problems with Point of aim/point of impact of 4" barreled Police Service revolvers. as well as the sprung frame syndrome.
The procedure was utilized many times during my career as a Gunsmith.

Here are my "Babbits", which I received in 1977 at the factory Armorer's school. Along with some other tools that some of you will recognize:



Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Where's the thin-wall cutter modified to stretch the yoke?

When I was at the S&W school the same year as Les I never saw a yoke cutter. We were taught to use the yoke alignment tool and a small ball peen hammer to stretch the yoke to eliminate endshake cylinder. One of the main advantages of the babbit bars is that they produce a dead blow and also will not mark the gun or its finish. Also babbit bars are used for several other purposes besides adjusting POI on fixed sight revolvers.

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S&W Armorer
Lost in the 50s

That sounds more familiar to me, Bert, although it's been what, 40 years ago? I don't remember anything about a yoke cutter.... Hey, we could have been in the same class. I still have some notes and a class roster somewhere in my files. I'll check and send you a PM if I can find the dates when I was there. Of course they had quite a few classes each year. That was one of the best schools that I ever attended.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Like you I would have to hunt up my certificate to see the exact dates but it Was definitely 2 weeks in September. Yep, 40 years ago. Where did our youth go? Probably wherever my memory went.

That memory strikes again, was actually there sometime in August not September

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S&W Armorer
Lost in the 50s

I pour my own lead hammers, bars & punches. Not to choosy that I have
to use babbit. I have a lot of mystery lead that is hard stuff. Very useful
to tighten up old doubles and single barrel shotguns. The mistake most
made with these tools is " pecking ", you need to figure what needs done,
support it well and give it a solid wack. Check your work and proceed from
there. I have never bent a frame to line POA, but have bumped sights on
service type revolvers. To straighten shotgun barrels ( not doubles) I built
a rig with sliding stirrups and a pressure yoke powered by a 3/4 ratchet.
All this stuff requires the feel.

I've got a babbit bar among my "possibles". Don't use it a lot, and have never used it for the purpose described here. But sometimes you need to give something a whack that doesn't leave a mark, so I hunt it up and use it instead of a ball peen hammer. It has come in handy for me more than once!!

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So long ... Ken

How many were coached by Johnny Contro? He coached me in about 69.

You boys be careful around the Bobbitt tool. This is the one Lorena used.



Oh. Babbitt bar, not Bobbitt tool. Never mind. Well, on second thought I'd be pretty careful whacking on anything with either one. Whacking on a S&W with a hard metal object sends chills up my spine but whacking with the Bobbitt tool .........

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Scoundrel & Ne'er-Do-Well

Yes, John Contro was our senior instructor along with another guy with the first name Don.

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S&W Armorer
Lost in the 50s

Yep! He was still there in 1977, along with as Bert points out, Don, whose last name I can't remember right now. At a field school I attended in the nineties, Don was still instructing, but John was long retired. They were wonderful folks.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

Thanks for letting me know, John was a good hand, I would love the opportunity to hand him the last S&W I worked over and let him examine it, then maybe go shoot.

Don and John were still teaching in 1980. Don's last name is Vivenzio.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Thanks!! My memory just isn't what it used to be!! That's it. They were great guys, and I only wish that I retained all of the wonderful knowlege that they imparted to us. A lot of the things that we were taught were seldom used (mostly because Smiths are really reliable guns) and I'm afraid that I have lost many of the skills that they trained us in. Well, and then we went to semi-autos, and I went back to school for the semis. Smith put on a class for the WV State Police in the mid nineties, and I attended it. Don was the instructor, and it was held at the WV State Police Academy. That is the last time that I saw him....

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

I went through fall 1979 Don showed us how to adjust point of impact on a model 10. He didn't tell us ahead of time what he was going to do and all the students made a sucking wind sound as the struck the barrel on the babbitt bar.
Don told us best not to do in front of owner !!
As for Don Vivenzio I called S&W to order some parts and asked if the person I was speaking with knew him and shortly he picked up he was working in customer service last I knew.

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SWCA 1932 SWHF 135

I was taught by a nice fella named Gary Settembre . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Well, for any of you old timers like me, who might have went to school back then, I found my original letter from Smith and Wesson!! (I keep just about everything, which is why they have TV shows about "hoarders").

I was in the class that met from April 25th, 1977 through May 6th, 1977. I also have the roster of participants, 18 in all. Only one of them was non LEO, and that was a fellow named Fred Sadowski, of "300 Gunsmith Service, of Denver Colorado. I think I heard of him later, as he was fairly well known at one time. I believe that he has since passed on.

By the way, at the bottom of the letter there are a number of names of employees for distribution. One of them is a fellow named "R Jinks".

After the two week Armorer's School, I see that I stayed an extra week for the "Advanced Firearms School".

Good times......

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

I believe the Railroad was one of the biggest users of babbit as axle wheel bearings. In the 60's and 70's it was cheap, readily available, and easy to pour into any mold you had made.

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Front sight and squeeze

Would be much better if someone put together a video on the use of the Babbit bar. After reading all the foregoing, I still do not understand the methodology.

It's the Lead Hammer on most Mechanics/'Smiths benchs,,that's all.
No mystery.
The alloy happens to have been Babbit Metal in past.
No Lead in most Babbit alloys (Bearing Metal), about 90% Tin. The rest Antimony and a bit of copper.

Does the same thing as a Lead hammer. Though the alloy is harder so it doesn't deform as quick in use.
Either can be melted and recast easily.
They used to sell Hammer Moulds of many different sizes and shapes for casting/ re-casting your own Lead or Babbitt hammer head onto your own handle.
Maybe they still do

Heavy & soft so it doesn't mark or damage the surface of the parts being struck.
It produces a dead fall blow to the part or parts you need to move, seat, bend, or adjust.

It doesn't rebound off the surface, It's weight gives an extremely heavy blow to the part w/o damaging it if the part is a solid metal one.

Yes you can damage stuff with it obviously.

But for bending heavy pieces very small amts, either is very handy.
Of course they take some skill in use and you can easily over 'adjust'.

Good for machine set-up too.
Moving heavy machine fixtures very small amts to square and level them up when setting up for a job. Won't damage the tooling fixtures and easy to make the small movements to them before bolting in place.

For fitting tight sliding parts to one another, they are very handy. Not only to knock the part(s) back and forth but to gently strike one to the side slightly and make for some clearance so it does slide smoothly.
In that simple move, constant re-spotting & re-fitting can be elliminated.

It's the way things were done at one time.
It still works well.

My understanding is that the Babbitt Bar is to be used in cases of a minor adjustment to get POA = POI. I personally have not used one and would not use one for any sort of major adjustment.

Never owning or using one, I would think that where the barrel gets "adjusted" (moved) would be at the threaded connection into the frame. I'm thinking that "thread stretch" would allow the barrel to move one way or the other. I am also thinking a babbitt smack should be few and decisive as numerous and constant small blows would ruin the threads holding abilities by distorting the threads too much. That would be my assessment. Professional GS's might know better.

I found the comment regarding adjusting something 1/10,000" interesting, to put that measurement in perspective a particle of dust measures 2/10,000". Most lack the capability to even measure to a 1/10,000".

We had a very used '50 Chevy 2-ton truck with a 6 cylinder engine built with babbitted rods. The soft metal required you to keep the oil topped off and rpms low. Sold it in '74 to a guy who didn't understand either he burned it up quickly.

Soft metal, indeed.

There are many things done in the gunsmithing trade regarding fitting parts that the average person would see as crude or in todays language..'Bubba'.. if witnessed in person.
Especially if being performed on the owners gun in front of them.

A lot of the techniques were and some still are in use in the factories. Though with the use of robotic assembly and closer final fit of parts, much of it is not needed anymore on new stuff.

But when not so new and older assemblies needed to be put together, ways to do it in a factory setting quickly and efficiently.
This just one of the tools they used.

Another seemingly heavy handed straightening method was in use (not involving the bash-em bar) when assembling tube feed .22rf rifles.

The Innermag tube must slide smoothly in and out of the Outer mag tube.
Simple enough.
So with the two components in hand what to do during factory assembly (or even Gunsmith Repair/Replacement) when they slide together,but just barely. It takes some effort to make them slide together and they even can get jammed/stuck inside one another.

Bending the tubes by hand after sighting down them to see the bends however slight they are is one way. It can get you some results, but it can usually make things worse. Kinks in the tubes is real possibility especially with the outer tube.
You're on piece work in the factory so lets get going...

What did they do?

Slide / push both tubes together no matter how difficult they assemble.
Lock the inner into the outer tube, if you can even turn them now.

Then on a cleared off section of your bench top, grasping the tube assembly by one end and just with the finger tips, by the sides of the tube assembly,,,raise the assembly about 1/2 way up shoulder high,,and then slap it flat down onto the bench top surface.
Like trying to slap a wooden ruler on a school desk to make that cracking noise. Flat onto the surface.

Try the assembly now and in many cases the assembly will slide smoothly in and out.
No more adjustment needed.
If a bit more Help is needed,,turn the assembly 180*,,perform the Slap-Happy&Crack exercise one more time and you should be all done.

Smoothest running mag tube assembly the Factory ever put on. Just like the rest of them.

I can still hear that sound out on the assembly floor and in the Repair Shop.
Fixes old ones up in Repair to like new running condition as well.

Just don't do this on a customer's charming old rifle that was Great Grampa's while the customer is still standing there.

You might enjoy this book:

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