M&P's are inexpensive -- Why and How?
- Thread starter Lost Lake
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
H&K has enjoyed a great reputation like most all German engineered and manufactured products share. They are great firearms. Personally though I believe in today's marketplace they fall into the category of those who own them feel because they paid more they got a whole lot more and have a firearm status symbol so to speak. To the credit of the H&K's and Sigs, they do command a premium upon resale. No doubt these are fine weapons, but I just sold my bi-tone H&K Compact USP 9mm for the Springfield XDs. Many will say I was nuts but to me the USP Compact is much more like a full size by today's standards and the only pistol I wanted to keep in 9mm is my PM9 so I'm very happy with my choice. I have a full size in .45 so I had no use for it any longer. A part of me hated to sell it, but for me it had outlived its usefulness I guess you could say. But because it's an H&K I did get a great price for it. I would not hesitate to buy another H&K but there are so many good choices available at a fraction of the cost I just don't see it ever happening.
Last edited:
MichiganScott
Member
I expect as much as anything it's because the M&P line was designed right from the start to be inexpensive to manufacture.
There's also that little thing of "currency conversion" that makes imported items expensive if their production cost is high.
There's also that little thing of "currency conversion" that makes imported items expensive if their production cost is high.
SpinControl
Member
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 38
- Reaction score
- 11
Plastic is probably cheaper than steel.
Also, other foreign companies may be charging more on name alone vs. quality.
Based on my 2 S&W, the quality is no better or worse than my Beretta. And the Beretta FS vs an M&P FS is about $100 more. Both composites.
That said, I'd stay away from "economy" brands (e.g., Hi Point); not sure about their reliability, but the aesthetics are not what I would consider polished. But to each his/her own.
Also, other foreign companies may be charging more on name alone vs. quality.
Based on my 2 S&W, the quality is no better or worse than my Beretta. And the Beretta FS vs an M&P FS is about $100 more. Both composites.
That said, I'd stay away from "economy" brands (e.g., Hi Point); not sure about their reliability, but the aesthetics are not what I would consider polished. But to each his/her own.
mp's are cheaper because you live in the States and because SW wants to. You will see the same gun in 5 more years selling by 800-900 whenever SW decided the have a market share big enough to do so. It all about marketing, we are lucky to buy a gun like the MP at these prices right now.
You can buy any part from brownells or sw for an average of 10 to 25 dollars for most parts.
You can buy any part from brownells or sw for an average of 10 to 25 dollars for most parts.
Look at Sigs
Sig Saurs are great guns, but they are too pricy for me unless I was able to find a used one at a good deal. I certainly wouldn't mind having one, but I can't justify the price when I can get something that suits my needs perfectly like S&Ws do. I think there is an element of mystique to these more expensive guns that drives the price up somewhat because not just everybody can pay for 'prestige' just like everybody can't drive a Porsche.
Sig Saurs are great guns, but they are too pricy for me unless I was able to find a used one at a good deal. I certainly wouldn't mind having one, but I can't justify the price when I can get something that suits my needs perfectly like S&Ws do. I think there is an element of mystique to these more expensive guns that drives the price up somewhat because not just everybody can pay for 'prestige' just like everybody can't drive a Porsche.
Rastoff
US Veteran
The M&P is by far the best 'bang for your buck' on the pistol market today. It is a quality gun that is more functional than any other gun and isn't very expensive. This is a combination that only brand loyalty keeps S&W from owning the pistol market.
S&W is smart. They have priced themselves below the market. They make money through big sales. It's working because M&Ps are flying off the shelves.
No, the HK is not that much better. It's been around longer and has more machining so, it costs more.
S&W is smart. They have priced themselves below the market. They make money through big sales. It's working because M&Ps are flying off the shelves.
No, the HK is not that much better. It's been around longer and has more machining so, it costs more.
I think its not really accurate to say M&Ps are inexpensive because HK pistols cost twice as much. Talking about value might be a better way to look at it. But on its own, I don't think the M&P is inexpensive at all. The last one I bought was about $600 (it had night sights). To me, $600 for a mass produced pistol with a terrible trigger and that seems to be afflicted with "serial accuracy problems" is hardly a bargain.
That was a mistake. Until I start seeing M&Ps that shoot, I am done with them. I guess I would rather have spent my money on a used SIG or HK, but I don't need another pistol so I won't be doing it now. JMHO.
That was a mistake. Until I start seeing M&Ps that shoot, I am done with them. I guess I would rather have spent my money on a used SIG or HK, but I don't need another pistol so I won't be doing it now. JMHO.
Dollar vs Euro
As of right now, 1 US Dollar equals 0.77 Euro. The weaker the dollar gets, the more expensive the HK will be.
As of right now, 1 US Dollar equals 0.77 Euro. The weaker the dollar gets, the more expensive the HK will be.
spad124
Member
+1 to Rastoff. Is a HK or Sig worth 2x the price of a M&P? For me, "worth" is tied to function: reliability first, then fit, then accuracy. Triggers, safety systems, etc can be learned. That said, there are many pistols that are reliable, accurate and cost less than a HK or Sig.
However, just before or at the time the M&Ps came out I bought a Sig P226 CPO. The price on the factory rearsenaled CPO was about the same as the M&P at the time and the only way I could justify or afford a Sig. $900- $1K for a service pistol excessive to my way of thinking, but half of that price is/was reasonable.
If M&Ps had been available and not MSRP, it would have been a very tough decision. I've been impressed with the service sized M&Ps I've looked at (not a fan of compacts- but then I also have and like L and N frames). They fit my hand well and seem well made. However, since I already have the Sig it's hard to justify selling it for something that is functionally so similar. It's not really brand loyalty in my case, it's more like an even trade. If I was looking for a second service sized pistol I'd probably buy a M&P because of, as Rastoff said, bang for the buck.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2005
- Messages
- 7,994
- Reaction score
- 7,044
I do not know if they are that much better, but I once had a USP .45, which is a combat weapon, pure and simple. Yet, it grouped exactly the same at 25 yards as a Kimber 1911 "Match" gun that another shooter had at the local gun club. I have no doubt that there is something about the way they are engineered that allows them to be both match accurate and combat reliable at the same time. The more moderate priced S&Ws have always been "combat accurate," typically defined as 4 inch groups at 25 yards. The HK would cut that in half easily. Remember that 1.5 inch groups are pretty widely thought of as very premium and is the guarantee offered by Wilson, I think and perhaps others. The difference is that the custom 1911 makers charge at least double and sometimes nearly triple for the same performance as the HK price you quote. Very few people can really appreciate that kind of accuracy, but it is quite amazing to get it in a true combat ready and honest-to-goodness gun you would take with you if you were going to war.
kozmic
Member
The M&P was always designed to be a price-point gun to compete with the likes of Glock, etc.
Rastoff
US Veteran
These are interesting statements, but I don't know what they mean. I've never heard of "serial accuracy" before. I'm really curious to find out exactly what you mean by this.
If you're having accuracy problems, I'd like to help you solve them. I'm not having accuracy problems with my M&P, but every mechanical device is subject to manufacturing problems. Maybe you got a bad one; it happens.
When you say your M&P "doesn't shoot" are you referring to feeding issues? There have been some of those and most have been addressed.
Well said shawn mccarver and M29since14.
Comparing HK handguns, any HK handguns to the "m&p" is truly an apples to lima beans comparison. HK pistols are well made with hammer forged barrels that provide match grade accuracy and 60,000 round service life.
m&p's are cheaply made guns that have poor accuracy, particularly in 9mm, due to their lousy triggers and barrel twist rate.
You do get what you pay for from HK. With S&W, not so much. Regards 18DAI
Comparing HK handguns, any HK handguns to the "m&p" is truly an apples to lima beans comparison. HK pistols are well made with hammer forged barrels that provide match grade accuracy and 60,000 round service life.
m&p's are cheaply made guns that have poor accuracy, particularly in 9mm, due to their lousy triggers and barrel twist rate.
You do get what you pay for from HK. With S&W, not so much. Regards 18DAI
Rastoff, thanks for the offer. We have discussed the accuracy issue with small-caliber M&Ps elsewhere on this forum probably about to death, or I'm sure at least until most members are sick and tired of it. 
I am not a police department armorer or have another position where I can see literally hundreds of M&Ps in use every day. I have seen and had the opportunity to shoot a good many of these guns, particularly in 9mm.
The only M&Ps I would expect to live within that oft-mentioned 4"x4" accuracy standard at 25-yards would be (maybe) the M&P357s and the M&P45s. (Experience with the .357s is really limited - just two guns.) That is why I consider the small-caliber M&Ps "serially" inaccurate.
If you want to check this for yourself, just set up five targets at 25-yards and carefully fire a five-round group on each, from a rest position of your choice. If you want to go a step further, try a 10-round group or two. Let us know what you come up with. When I suggest this, most M&P owners usually decline.
No issues with function in any of the calibers. Triggers... usually just absolutely appalling. I don't see the small-caliber M&Ps as any sort of bargain at all.
I am not a police department armorer or have another position where I can see literally hundreds of M&Ps in use every day. I have seen and had the opportunity to shoot a good many of these guns, particularly in 9mm. The only M&Ps I would expect to live within that oft-mentioned 4"x4" accuracy standard at 25-yards would be (maybe) the M&P357s and the M&P45s. (Experience with the .357s is really limited - just two guns.) That is why I consider the small-caliber M&Ps "serially" inaccurate.
If you want to check this for yourself, just set up five targets at 25-yards and carefully fire a five-round group on each, from a rest position of your choice. If you want to go a step further, try a 10-round group or two. Let us know what you come up with. When I suggest this, most M&P owners usually decline.
No issues with function in any of the calibers. Triggers... usually just absolutely appalling. I don't see the small-caliber M&Ps as any sort of bargain at all.
Nakanokalronin
Member
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2010
- Messages
- 1,071
- Reaction score
- 369
Considering how inexpensive it is to mold a poly frame over having several machining processes in a steel or aluminum frame, all poly guns should be cheaper than what they are. IMO, no poly gun should cost over $500, but that's me looking at it from several years in manufacturing and being a machinist.
N4KVE
Member
If some lowlife is trying to rob me, & take my money, he has to be closer than 5 feet to "grab the cash". I fully expect my 40c to be able to handle that. GARY
Rastoff
US Veteran
Thanks for the reply. This is the info I was looking for based on your comment.
First of all, I don't consider the M&P a 25 yard gun. It is a self defense gun and as such, 25 yards is a really long shot. In fact, I have not fired mine at a distance greater than 15 yards. For me, if a bad guy is further away than that, I can get away rather than have to shoot him.
Also, I have not shot a 4" group at 15 yards. Largely because I've always used the gun in a defensive way. If I can put two rounds within a hand span of each other, even at 15 yards, that's good enough for me.
Still, it's an interesting test. I will do as you suggest. I will put a target at 25 yards, swing the pendulum all the way to accuracy and see what kind of groups I can get. I will report back.
OK, so, since this thread is about the quality and cost of the M&P and you don't like it, tell us what gun is out there that can be had for less than $600 and has better than 4" at 25 yard accuracy and a great trigger.
