4516 vs. 4516-1 vs. 4516-2

What are the differences in these three versions?

This thread http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-semi-auto-pistols/254358-4506-1-r4-dash-3-a.html may answer a lot of your questions. 18DAI is I believe, our resident expert on 4506's and hopefully will see this thread.

I recently came across one of the (R4) Dash 3's but alas, didn't have the funds available to make it mine.

I'm no expert, but I have extensive experience with the 4516's, so I'll try to help.

The no dash 4516 had a stepped frame, dual recoil springs, thinner slide with a rib along the top and flash chromed hammer and trigger. It is the lightest in weight of the 4516's. The Smith & Wesson rollmarks were twards the muzzle with the "four line" aft of it on the slide.

There reportedly were slide inertia problems resulting in feeding problems and also magazine issues. The original follower IIRC was problematic.

Many 4516 no dash owners report no issues at all with their guns and I believe them. But, there evidently were some problems with SOME 4516 no dash guns as S&W did some design changes.

The 4516-1 eliminated the step in the frame and beefed up the slide too. The step along the top of the slide was eliminated as well. Spurless hammer and trigger still flash chromed. Early versions had the rollmarks similar to the no dash but later production centered them on the slide and eliminated the "four line". The recoil spring was changed to a single unit. Magazines were modified with new followers and IIRC springs as well. The magazines were etched with an advisory "For use only in 4516-1".

Reportedly, there were still feed issues with SOME 4516-1's. Mostly well used examples in LE service were where problems were reported. Whether this was a design problem or user problem is up for debate, IMO. In any case, 4516-1 production dwindled and then stopped. I can't recall the year..........1992???

I think it is only fair to point out here, that while MANY 4516-1 owners have pistols which function perfectly, right out of the box, there are quite a few who report various feed problems. Not dozens or of epidemic proportions, but enough reports to warrant some concern. Some of those sent their 4516-1's back to S&W for examination and repair. They report that S&W modified their 4516-1's in the following manner. The guide rod was changed to the later, reduced diameter, 4516-2 version. A washer style retainer was installed in the guide rod tunnel of the slide and the dual recoil spring setup, ala 4516-2, was also installed. These owners report that upon return from S&W, their 4516-1's feeding issues were eliminated.

After a brief hiatus and a redesign of the recoil system the 4516 model was, according to the S&W flyer/announcement; "Back by popular demand" in the 4516-2 variant. The changes included the previously mentioned new guide rod and dual recoil springs, a redesigned frame with longer tang and blue/black forged hammer and trigger (Some very late production 4516-2 have black MIM hammer and trigger). I don't recall positively as I sometimes have oldtimers, but I think the larger barrel hood and other 3rd gen 45 barrel modifications were also incorporated into the 4516-2. Perhaps someone here can confirm or correct that. This was around 1994/1995 IIRC. Also at around this time the last revision of the magazines occured with the incorporation of the black followers.

Incorporating all of the design enhancements and none of the later cost cutting measures (except for those examples having MIM hammers and triggers) the 4516-2 were, and evidently remain, the most popular of the 4516 series.

After the end of the 4516-2 line......1999????? there was one more variant. Some LE really liked the 4516 for their plain clothes and detective divisions. S&W would make runs of certain models for LE. Thus the 4516-3. Visually, the 4516-3 is only discernable from a 4516-2 by virtue of its markings. The rollmarks are gone and replaced by laser etching. The slide has "Smith & Wesson" with the famous logo laser etched on the slide. The frame is laser etched "MOD 4516" above the trigger guard along with a laser etched serial number. There is no "dash number" after the "MOD 4516" marking. This creates some confusion as folks mistake these last 4516's for no dash models. The 4516-3 does incorporate the MIM hammer and trigger, dual recoil spring setup, MIM mag catch (replace this with a steel part if you use this gun for serious purpose as mine failed) and larger barrel hood. The 4516-3 is known at S&W as a 4516 R4, or revision 4.

If you have the original box, up on the right side you will see and "03" and "SPECIAL ORDER" on the label. This almost always confirms an LE overun after the end of "official" production. Of course the only way to know for sure is a call to customer service or a Jinks letter.

For all intents and purposes, the 4516-3 is a laser etched 4516-2. So there you have it. A thumbnail 4516 history as near as I've been able to discover over the last twenty years.

Personally, I became enamored by the 4516 with a no dash model. It was a confiscated piece that was present on a "range day". Range day was a once or twice a year thing at my old agency where we used confiscted guns to "destroy" confiscated ammunition. And yes, we got paid to do it.

I picked the 4516 no dash out of a milk crate full of guns. I still recall one of the guns above it was a very beat up, peeling nickel Python with hideous lime green plastic grips. Anyways, it only had the one mag in it. I was searching for a compact 45 at the time as the writing was on the wall that our revolvers were going away for good. They would no longer authorize them so we better find a semi auto to use.

I fired around 500 rounds through that filthy, neglected 4516 no dash that day, IIRC. There was no lube at all on it when I started. After 200 or 300 rounds I remember the slide was getting slow. So I hosed it down with Breakfree and went on to shoot it the rest of the afternoon.

This gun was far more accurate than any of the "popular compact 45's" of the time. None of them were as reliable. All of them choked. Not the 4516 though. I wondered why I'd never heard about the 4516. I promptly called around and found a NIB 4516-3 which I proceeded to use for the next several years. A reliable accurate little tack driver. One of my never sell guns. I only retired it when I aquired the 4513TSW's. I still shoot it from time to time though. Sweet 45.

Hope this helps! Regards 18DAI

Reading is fundamental. Sorry OP, I thought you meant 4506.

Last 4516s?

When were the last 4516s of any variant made?

Was there anything after the final 4516-3s?

I would guess that the last 4516's were made somewhere between 2004 and 2006.

I say that because, IIRC, my 4516-3 was made in 2004. Supposedly, the last 3rd gen pistols were "discontinued" in 2006. Although we know that some 3rd gen models are still being produced at the S&W Houlton ME facility. Regards 18DAI

I pre-ordered a 4516 no dash when the word first came out that S&W was going to be marketing them. My duty weapon at the time was a 645. I bought one of the first 4516s. I never had an issue of any kind with it. It fed everything I put in it and was accurate. I kept it until we stopped issuing the 645/4506 guns.

I later ran across a 4516-1. Again, no problems to report. I wish I had it back. Later, I found a 4516-2. Same story; traded it away for something else I wanted to try out. Again, no problems of any kind, and I wish I could get it back, too.

Timely Thread...... Thanks for all the information guys.....This stuff really does help the rest of us.....Zebulon

Excellent discourse on the 4516. You did a similar one on the 4506 and Lee per my request and I am sure others requests has filed it under Notable Threads in the Semi Auto handgun Section under 3rd Gen semi autos.
This one should go there as well.

Very interesting write up 18, thanks.

I can only add that of the four no dashes I've owned, all of them had the dual recoil spring set ups. All were flawless. And of course I cleverly sold them all over the years. *sigh*

I take solace in my Shorty 45s though.


Cat

Very interesting Catshooter! Did you notice whether they had "bushings" installed in the recoil spring tunnel?

I would suspect that the previous owners perhaps experienced reliability issues and sent them back to S&W.

I've only handled/examined one 4516 no dash, the one at the range day. To the best of my recollection it had a single recoil spring. But my oldtimers is firing up on me today.

mbliss57, thanks for the kind words. I'm no expert. Just a shooter. Best regards, 18DAI

18, the two no dash 4516's I have experience with did have the bushing press fitted in the recoil spring tunnel, however I am not sure this was a retrofit. I am basing this on the fact that the S&W pistol parts list for the 4516 dated 09 lists the two recoil springs and recoil spring guide for all dashes of the 4516 except for the -1. I suspect that very early on the 4516 went to a two recoil spring set up and most if not all shipped with this set up. The bushing is not on the parts list though and the bushing, guide and springs will work in a -1 and a -1 spring and guide will work in a no dash with bushing removed.

Thanks for the info Mack!!

Perhaps I am mistaken in my recollection of the single recoil spring in the no dash that I shot.............

My ex wife says I'm usually wrong.

Any other 4516 no dash owners out there have a single or dual recoil spring in their gun? Regards 18DAI

You know 18 I can a good oldtimers going on too, but it sure seems to me that none of my four had bushings. But I could be all wet.


Cat

Love both of mine..-1 &-2. Lot of firepower in a small package!

I had the opportunity to shoot my 4516-3 this past weekend. I had stored it over a year ago as I had been carrying its 4513TSW cousin instead.

The 4513TSW is slightly lighter weight and has the same reliability as all of the compact 3rd gen 45's. I shot my 4516-3 alongside my early, or original version, 6-round mag 4513TSW.

I found that it is much easier, for me, to get fast accurate hits using the 4516. The slight additional weight making the follow ups a little bit quicker and much more accurate. I shot both at 15 yards using 230 grain WWB.

Shooting controlled pairs at a 3X5 index card I was able to keep all the rounds on the index card using the 4516. I only kept 4 out of 6 on the card using the 4513TSW. This was done with 6 rounds loaded, lay the gun on the table, pick it up and fire a controlled pair as fast as possible, go low ready, bring the gun up in a snap sight picture and fire two more rounds.

The 4516-3 was wearing its factory Xenoy grips and the 4513TSW a pair of rubber Hogue grips that Big Dog was kind enough to cut to fit my 4513TSW's cut out grip frame.

I may have to reconsider keeping the 4516-3 parked. It was a joy to shoot. I had two groups at 15 yards that my shooting partner measured at under 2 inches.

Ideally, I'd like to find a 4516 no dash with an action job, Novak low mount night sights and Wolfe +10% recoil and mag springs. That would be a pretty neat set up, for me.

One other thing I noticed. When I broke down my 4516-3 for cleaning it has the last revision of the guide rod. It is the one piece, not staked. I had not noticed that before. Regards 18DAI

Edited to add: I don't know how that link in the word "sight" got there. I didn't do that.

Sounds like a good time at the range, JW. Its funny that you mention that link using the word sight. I first noticed it today in a couple of other posts.

*And Now In This One!*

4516-2 Convert!

Due to the comments in threads like this, I, too, have joined the ranks of 3rd Gen owner of a 4516-2. I blindly bought one off of GunBroker, and have never regretted it. As a occasional user of a 45 Auto, This piece is one that I regard as a "out of my cold hand" will it leave my possession! Knowledgeable users (18DAI) that give knowledgeable info in a forum such as this is exactly why this piece is important to me!

Side note to Moderator: I have noticed the "sight" link for some time, now, also. Possibly, since the word "sight" is a tagged key word, the link is associated to the tag.

I have a 4516-2 on the way, I can only hope it's as reliable and accurate as my 4506-1 that I've had since new. This baby will be a regular carry piece for me. Awesome guns and very underrated.

I needed to amend my first post in this thread. Catshooter was absolutley right about the original 4516 no dash having DUAL recoil springs. Thanks Catshooter!

I ran into an old aquaintance at the range this weekend who use to run a local gunshop back in the day. They were a S&W dealer. He saw my 4516-3 and we started talking about the 4516 model. He recalled that the initial 4516 no dash slide was "2 ounces too light to insure reliable function." He claimed to have gotten this info from a S&W employee back in the day when he had a couple of 4516 no dash returned to the factory due to FTF problems.

He also said that he "couldn't understand why they made the slide two ounces heavier on the 4516-1 but removed the dual recoil spring set up." He claimed to have sent a few 4516-1's back for service for failures to feed as well. He couldn't remember if they were given the dual recoil spring set up to cure the functioning issues. "I guess they fixed them because the customers didn't bring them back a second time."

I told him that all of my experience with the 4516 no dash was very positive. I told him about shooting a filthy, bone dry example with terrible quality ammo. He surmised that due to "tolerance stacking" during manufacturing at S&W that "there was always going to be examples of a problamatic model which don't exhibit the problem or problems when properly maintained and lubed. And then there is always going to be a few examples which will run regardless of what you do to them. How do you think Kimber stays in business 18? Then you have all the guns of that model made in between the two extremes which have variable performance due to tolerance stacking."

I found his recollections interesting and thought I'd post them here in this thread. I will edit my first post and correct the wrong information. Sucks to get old timers disease. Regards 18DAI