1006 vs Sig p220 10mm

FoundFather · Apr 23, 2022

I am big fan of all metal DA/SA. The only 3rd gen S&W I have is a CS9, but I would love to have more in all calibers. I have a couple of Sigs, and really like the manual of arms on their DA/SA models with decocker only. The only 10mm I have at the moment is a Glock 20SF. Not a fan of Glocks in general, but I have to admit it is a capable 10mm platform.

I want a metal DA/SA in 10mm. Of the S&W's, I think the 1006 would be my first pick. Partly beacuse they are the most plentiful, but also because I like the 5 inch barrel and am skeptical of the decocker only models. The decockers on 1026 and 1076 look like an afterthought, and apparetnly they use a lot of non-standard parts.

The p220 is still in production, has the manual of arms I like best, and comes with a 5 inch barrel. Mags, parts and service readily available, etc. But the p220 is alloy frame, and if there is any caliber where all stainless steel offers an advnatage, 10mm is it.

This would be primarily a range toy safe queen. If it proves as reliable as the Glock, could be a woods gun for some theoretical future trip to Alaska.

Interested to hear opinions on the comparison, especially from anyone who has both, or who has at least shot both. Which do you enjoy shooting more? Which most just feels like quality in your hand? Which one is going to be easier to keep running forever?

Shootgood · Apr 23, 2022

Aaron much as I like the 3rd gen smiths I would have to go with the Sig. I have a discontinued p220 R5 SAO 10mm and like it a lot.

Frank Black · Apr 23, 2022

FoundFather said:
I am big fan of all metal DA/SA. The only 3rd gen S&W I have is a CS9, but I would love to have more in all calibers. I have a couple of Sigs, and really like the manual of arms on their DA/SA models with decocker only. The only 10mm I have at the moment is a Glock 20SF. Not a fan of Glocks in general, but I have to admit it is a capable 10mm platform.

I want a metal DA/SA in 10mm. Of the S&W's, I think the 1006 would be my first pick. Partly beacuse they are the most plentiful, but also because I like the 5 inch barrel and am skeptical of the decocker only models. The decockers on 1026 and 1076 look like an afterthought, and apparetnly they use a lot of non-standard parts.

The p220 is still in production, has the manual of arms I like best, and comes with a 5 inch barrel. Mags, parts and service readily available, etc. But the p220 is alloy frame, and if there is any caliber where all stainless steel offers an advnatage, 10mm is it.

This would be primarily a range toy safe queen. If it proves as reliable as the Glock, could be a woods gun for some theoretical future trip to Alaska.

Interested to hear opinions on the comparison, especially from anyone who has both, or who has at least shot both. Which do you enjoy shooting more? Which most just feels like quality in your hand? Which one is going to be easier to keep running forever?

I have both. (See obligatory pic, attached).

My Sig P220 is the early DA/SA two-tone Match Elite. Both are fun to shoot and both, being literal all-steel tanks, can handle the hottest factory 10mm ammo (DT, BB, UW, or CorBon) with zero issues. Same for my “heavy & fast” handloads.

The Sig is significantly heavier than the 1006, due to the railed frame; however, unlike the 1006, you can easily attach a light to it, so maybe that’s an advantage.

The real issue with the Sig is the overly-stingy mag capacity at 8+1

, whereas S&W’s 10XX-series guns were all 9+1 load-outs.

For the 10mm P220 series, Sig should’ve used a double-stack stainless steel frame based off the P227-pattern. In .45acp, the 227 was a 10+1 gun. In 10mm, that would’ve made it like, an 11+1 or 12+1 gun. Then you could justify the greater weight of the railed frame by the greater on-tap mag capacity.

Sure, it wouldn’t match the lighter weight or higher capacity of a 15+1 Glock 20, but there are a lotta folks out there who like all-steel 10mm blasters, especially ones that aren’t 1911-based.

FoundFather · Apr 23, 2022

Frank Black said:
Sure, it wouldn’t match the lighter weight or higher capacity of a 15+1 Glock 20, but there are a lotta folks out there who like all-steel 10mm blasters, especially ones that aren’t 1911-based.

Quite. And I would like to be one of them. Plastic guns and squishy striker triggers just aren't my thing.

Lots of good points here, Frank. I was under the impression that 220 had an aluminum frame, so thanks for correcting that.
One question on the weight. Sig's website claims the 220 in 10mm is 44 ounces: SIG SAUER LEGION 10mm Full Size Pistol in DA/SA or SAO While wikipedia says the 1006 is 42 ounces: Smith & Wesson Model 1006 - Wikipedia

That is not a big difference percentage wise. Of course, these stats are from different sources and there is no indication of whether they where weighed on an apples to apples basis, with or without mags and ammo. Do you think those nubmers are off? Is the weight difference more than 2 ounces?

Frank Black · Apr 23, 2022

FoundFather said:
* * * One question on the weight. Sig's website claims the 220 in 10mm is 44 ounces: SIG SAUER LEGION 10mm Full Size Pistol in DA/SA or SAO While wikipedia says the 1006 is 42 ounces: Smith & Wesson Model 1006 - Wikipedia

That is not a big difference percentage wise. Of course, these stats are from different sources and there is no indication of whether they where weighed on an apples to apples basis, with or without mags and ammo. Do you think those numbers are off? Is the weight difference more than 2 ounces?

I think it is more, but I’ll have to weigh both of mine and get back to you on this thread. Weight will be nominal unloaded weight, i.e., empty mag in gun.

colt_saa · Apr 23, 2022

I have several Smith & Wesson auto loaders chambered for the 10MM Auto cartridge. I got the first one in 1990 and still own it.

Forgive this two decade old image. It is the only one I have posted. The 1006 was the softest shooting 10MM Auto pistol of it's day, however it was not the most accurate.

The decocker mechanism on the 1026/1076 pistols was a requirement of the FBI.

The parts are all standard, they are just different from a 1006. The lock work in a K22 Masterpiece is different than the lock work in a K38 Masterpiece

If you are making this choice based on shootability, this is a no brainier. You have to buy the P220. Yes I also own a P220 chambered for the 10MM Auto cartridge. Mine was built in the days before SIG offered this cartridge as an option

ALL of the P220s chambered for the 10MM Auto Cartridge are steel framed guns with 5" barrels. SIG has never offered another option in barrel length or frame construction. There are NO alloy framed P220s chambered for the 10MM Auto cartridge

As a shooter, the SIG has readily available magazines, parts and Factory support. All things that a Smith & Wesson 10xx model will lack, but you already know that

The P220 is also superior in the accuracy department

If your desire was collectability, then I can see the 10xx models as the way to go here

colt_saa · Apr 23, 2022

For the 10mm P220 series, Sig should’ve used a double-stack stainless steel frame based off the P227-pattern. In .45acp, the 227 was a 10+1 gun. In 10mm, that would’ve made it like, an 11+1 or 12+1 gun. Then you could justify the greater weight of the railed frame by the greater on-tap mag capacity.

The P227 did not exist at the start of the P220's development with the 10MM Auto

The P227 can carry 11+1 in the flush fit magazines or 15+1 in the extended length magazines. This occurs after a change the the base plate locking piece. The factory supplied plastic piece is tall and inhibits the follower from moving all the way down he mag body. Using a steel locking piece from the P226 magazine opens up full movement. With the 10MM Auto cartridge that increases by 2 rounds

SIGs choice to go with a narrower magazine body was made to allow smaller hands to use the Firearm comfortably.

One of the biggest complaints of the smaller handed 45ACP autoloading shooters is how long the trigger reach is. Make the grip wider and the group of perspective buyers that are comfortable with the firearm shrinks.

Frank Black · Apr 23, 2022

colt_saa said:
The P227 did not exist at the start of the P220's development with the 10MM Auto.

That’s not correct. ... The P227 was introduced in 2013 and discontinued in 2019. The 10mm P220 was introduced in 2016. So clearly Sig had time to consider building a 10mm variant on a double-stack 227-type frame in stainless steel.

Sig chose to go with a single-stack frame, but even then they could’ve engineer the magazine to hold 1- or 2 additional rounds. S&W mags held 9-rds easily with a flush-fitting base pad.

The P227 can carry 11+1 in the flush fit magazines or 15+1 in the extended length magazines. This occurs after a change the the base plate locking piece. The factory supplied plastic piece is tall and inhibits the follower from moving all the way down he mag body. Using a steel locking piece from the P226 magazine opens up full movement. With the 10MM Auto cartridge that increases by 2 rounds

So you’re saying the factory 8-rd 10mm mags can be tweaked to hold 2 more rounds?

SIGs choice to go with a narrower magazine body was made to allow smaller hands to use the Firearm comfortably.

Smaller hands generally = smaller people, and those aren't the folks likely to buy a heavy 5” pistol with a stingy mag capacity.

One of the biggest complaints of the smaller handed 45ACP autoloading shooters is how long the trigger reach is. Make the grip wider and the group of perspective buyers that are comfortable with the firearm shrinks.

I have medium hands and have shot a couple of 227s. The particular ergonomics of the 227’s grip, and the corresponding handling characteristics, were excellent, I thought.

A stainless double-stack frame with a rail would definitely have added weight to a “10mm 227,” but gaining a higher mag capacity by half (i.e., 12+1 v. 8+1) would’ve been worth it, IMO.

Sevens · Apr 23, 2022

colt_saa said:
I have several Smith & Wesson auto loaders chambered for the 10MM Auto cartridge. I got the first one in 1990 and still own it.

Colt_saa, what is the story behind the rear sight on this pistol? From the side view it looks like a 645 fixed blade… but at the same time you can see the ledge at the rear for the Novak lo-mount.

That’s odd!

colt_saa · Apr 23, 2022

Sevens said:
Colt_saa, what is the story behind the rear sight on this pistol? From the side view it looks like a 645 fixed blade… but at the same time you can see the ledge at the rear for the Novak lo-mount.

That’s odd!

I have seen early 1006s with several different rear sights. That is just what the Factory chose to ship on mine. It is a one owner gun.

Charlie Foxtrott · Apr 23, 2022

I do not have a Sig 220.

But I am really happy with the two NIB 1006s that I managed to snag at decent prices a few years ago. I have enough new magazines for them to last me for a while as well. They are excellent guns, and accuracy is as good as I need it to be with the factory adjustable sights. I also have a 1066 but do not like it quite as much.

Sevens · Apr 23, 2022

colt_saa said:
I have seen early 1006s with several different rear sights. That is just what the Factory chose to ship on mine. It is a one owner gun.

I’ve never seen that, and I’ve also never seen a 3rd Gen with the shelf that accommodates the Novak lo-mount but wearing a different sight.

Is there any chance that S&W gave it a unique product code because of that?

I do know that the earliest 3rd Gens with fixed rear sights had the simple blade and not the Novak, I had heard there was some kind of hold-up with a licensing agreement with Novak but I’ve also never read a clear account of that or a detailed explanation either.

colt_saa · Apr 24, 2022

Frank Black said:
That’s not correct. ... The P227 was introduced in 2013 and discontinued in 2019. The 10mm P220 was introduced in 2016. So clearly Sig had time to consider building a 10mm variant on a double-stack 227-type frame in stainless steel.

I NEVER said anything about introduction dates. If you re-read my post it says "The P227 did not exist at the start of the P220's development with the 10MM Auto"

Frank Black said:
So you’re saying the factory 8-rd 10mm mags can be tweaked to hold 2 more rounds?

I NEVER said anything about 8 round magazines. If you re-read my post it says "The P227 can carry 11+1 in the flush fit magazines or 15+1 in the extended length magazines. This occurs after a change the the base plate locking piece. The factory supplied plastic piece is tall and inhibits the follower from moving all the way down he mag body. Using a steel locking piece from the P226 magazine opens up full movement. With the 10MM Auto cartridge that increases by 2 rounds"

The implication is that a flush fit P227 magazine could hold 13 rounds of 10MM Auto ammunition

Frank Black said:
Smaller hands generally = smaller people, and those aren't the folks likely to buy a heavy 5” pistol with a stingy mag capacity.

That might hold partially true to individual purchasers, but not in a Departmental decision. Also I know many "smaller people" that still want to carry full size, full power firearms

Frank Black said:
I have medium hands and have shot a couple of 227s. The particular ergonomics of the 227’s grip, and the corresponding handling characteristics, were excellent, I thought.

That appears to agree with what I posted "One of the biggest complaints of the smaller handed 45ACP autoloading shooters is how long the trigger reach is. Make the grip wider and the group of perspective buyers that are comfortable with the firearm shrinks."

The narrower staggered magazine decision for the P227 produced a pistol comfortable for your smaller hands thus increasing the pool of possible buyers

colt_saa · Apr 24, 2022

Sevens said:
Is there any chance that S&W gave it a unique product code because of that?

These last posts are straying off topic. Sorry for the thread drift

Sevens,
I doubt it.

However in those days I did not keep empty boxes so there is no way for me to look at the label.

Assemblers just grab the parts from the bins in front of them. I have had probably half a dozen Smith & Wessons over the years that shipped with different front or rear sights than what was listed on the Spec sheet.

The Factory always offered to change it out on their dime

Mark8 · Apr 24, 2022

Using the P220 frame for the 10mm was a good choice in my opinion, because you actually do get something in return for the single stack low capacity: a gun that is not just slim but actually feels slim. The P227 grip is an unergonomic brick in comparison. If you go the big bulky unelegant way, then the gun needs to have real high capacity (without unwieldy mag extensions) to compete with the Glock 20/40. A P227 in 10mm would have been less reliable, less ergonomic and less capable than a Glock 20, so why? The P220 10mm on the other hand is conceptually perfect, it's an elegant slim all-steel medium range precision pistol that packs a punch. It's a gun for a person who aims well and hits hard, not for the spray-and-pray crowd, and in that it succeeds, in style.

Also: The P220 10mm will automatically cover your 3 o'clock!

Mark8 · Apr 24, 2022

Was asked in a private message about the 3 o'clock comment: I was referring to the P220 10mm's assertive way of ejecting hot brass.

Frank Black · Apr 24, 2022

Mark8 said:
* * *
A P227 in 10mm would have been less reliable, less ergonomic and less capable than a Glock 20, so why?

Arguably “less ergonomic” than a single stack, maybe .... but “less reliable”?

Nope.

Like all Sig P-models I ever shot, and that’s quite a number across all the so-called “service calibers” (9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, & .45acp), the .45 227 was as fully reliable as any of them, and just as reliable as my current 10mm P220.

“Less capable”? ... Nooop.

I’d prefer to have the enhanced capability that a 12- or 13-shot 10mm P227 would’ve offered over the low capacity boat-anchor that is my P220 Match Elite.

Frank Black · Apr 24, 2022

colt_saa said:
I NEVER said anything about introduction dates. If you re-read my post it says "The P227 did not exist at the start of the P220's development with the 10MM Auto"

And exactly when do you think the 10mm P220’s “development” started?

The first “10mm P220s” were actually stainless .45 P220s that Bruce Gray (@ Gray Guns) “converted” into 10mm configuration - both the gun and the .45acp factory mags. If I recall correctly, Gray’s conversion to the .45 mags allowed them to hold 9-rds of 10mm. I believe he supplied the customer with three such converted mags per gun.

But that’s where Sig got the idea to offer a line of production P220s in 10mm. Gray did all the hard work and heavy-lifting first, to show it could be done.

By the way, I have some aftermarket .45acp ACT-mags made in Italy for an old “Made in W. Germany” P220 that I no longer have. Guess what? They hold 9-rds of 10mm and function perfectly in the 10mm P220. I use them as range mags, primarily for my handloads.

So even in single-stack configuration, Sig could’ve engineered a 10mm mag with greater capacity than 8-rds. A different size follower, and maybe different floorplate geometry, and you might get to a 10-rd mag.

Breadman1 · Apr 24, 2022

I’ve had several S&W 10mm and also a Glock 20 and 29, but the P220 Stainless Elite is the only one that has stayed. Big and heavy and shoots like a 9mm.

colt_saa · Apr 24, 2022

Frank Black said:
And exactly when do you think the 10mm P220’s “development” started?

The first “10mm P220s” were actually stainless .45 P220s that Bruce Gray (@ Gray Guns) “converted” into 10mm configuration - both the gun and the .45acp factory mags. If I recall correctly, Gray’s conversion to the .45 mags allowed them to hold 9-rds of 10mm. I believe he supplied the customer with three such converted mags per gun.

But that’s where Sig got the idea to offer a line of production P220s in 10mm. Gray did all the hard work and heavy-lifting first, to show it could be done.

By the way, I have some aftermarket .45acp ACT-mags made in Italy for an old “Made in W. Germany” P220 that I no longer have. Guess what? They hold 9-rds of 10mm and functioned perfectly in the 10mm P220. I use them as range mags, primarily for my handloads.

So even in single-stack configuration, Sig could’ve engineered a 10mm mag with greater capacity than 8-rds. A different size follower, and maybe different floorplate geometry, and you might get to a 10-rd mag.

SIG got the idea of a P220 chambered in 10MM Auto from the shooters and the Media. I can recall discussing it with SIG as early as the 1990s, but I no longer recall what year. It was that demand that convinced Bruce Gray to pursue the project.

If you want to use Bruce's work as the start of SIG's developmental Journey down the 10MM Auto path, then 2007 is when development began. I believe it was within a year of the initial discussions that a prototype was shown at Bruce's facility

The Gray Gun's P220s were shipped with 5 magazines that were manufactured specifically for the project by Metal Form. They were not converted 45ACP magazines, they were manufactured from blank 10MM 1911 magazine tube stock. 3 of the magazines were flush fit 8 round capacity magazines while 2 of the magazines were extended 10 round mags. The initial 10 round magazines had a flaw in their creation and had to be remanufactured. The second batch works well

I never asked how many P220-10s Gray Guns produced but I will do so this week.

SIG eventually acknowledged Bruce as part of the P220 10MM Auto development team and again as part of the P320 team

1006 vs Sig p220 10mm

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