110 grain +P+
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Gary7
Member
38 Special +P+ is still not up to 357 Magnum pressures, so I'd say it would be fine in a 66 that's in good condition.
diamonback68
US Veteran
Be careful! He didn't say 38s, they could be 357s! It's not that the 66 can handle 357s, it's the fact that the light, short 110s will be slamming the forcing cone with very fast +P+ pressures and you may end up with a cracked forcing cone.
Search the forum and see what it has even done to Model 19s with 110s in just +Ps.
Search the forum and see what it has even done to Model 19s with 110s in just +Ps.
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Mule88
Member
I might be wrong, but most +P or +P+ ammo isnt magnum designated. Ive never seen a .357 +P or +P+ round. So I think it would be a 38.special round.
Gary7
Member
I've never seen or even heard of "357 Magnum +P+" so, of course, I'm assuming he meant 38 Special +P+.
I'd be willing to bet that even 110 gr 38 +P+ is still clocking less than 1200 fps, so it should not be an issue with the 66 forcing cone.
diamonback68
US Veteran
Do a search and see what they have done to 19s, the same gun in carbon steel.
It's the shorter light 110s hitting the force cone at that speed that does the damage.
Gary7
Member
The problem was 110-125 gr 357 Magnum loads pushing 1500+ fps, not 38 Special loads.
stiab
US Veteran
Yes, no problems, it should be a light recoil load. I know it is when I shoot the 110 grain .357 mags.
bobcat
US Veteran
This load in 38, 110 +P+, used to be the BP duty ammo when I was in and I carried it and shot it in my Model 66-2 with no issues. I also have never heard of any .357 +P+ but will never claim that I know all there is to know about ammo.
If you have any doubts, give S&W a call...
If you have any doubts, give S&W a call...
Gary7
Member
Winchester's specs on that load are 1155 fps so it's well below the velocity (and pressure) of 110-125 gr bullets in 357, which cause problems in the Model 19 and 66.
I have chronoed the LE .38 spl 110 +P+ Winchester loads. They made 1050 from a 3" mod 65, 1180 from a 6" mod 15 and 950 from a 2" mod 12. Dean
roaddog28
Member
Lighter bullets never has impress me. If your looking for a good self defense round for your M66 I suggest Buffalo Bores 158gr +P 38 special LSWCHP. Known as the "FBI" round. In a 4 inch revolver the velocity is over 1200 fps. Plus you get a good pentration round. In a short barrel you will still get around 1100 fps. This round is by far the stoutest 38 +P round going. Any more you might as well go to a 357 round.
By the way this round is what I use in my M13, M66 and M10.
Good luck,
roaddog28
Over penetration is largely an invented problem by those selling whiz bang ammo. However, under-penetration, something the 110 +P+ is infamous for, is a real problem.
There are loads that will perform much better in .38 special. I would carry 148 grain wadcutters before I would use the Treasury loads.
Timber Wolf
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If I remember correctly the Super Vel round in 38 Special with the 110 JHP is the round which was the Model 19 forcing cone cracker. Of course they also had the same bullet in 357 Magnum but it was the 38 that everyone wanted to soup up and Super Vel was the first. My experience with cracked cones has all been anecdotal and seemed to happen less once stainless steel was introduced. Back in the 1970's it was "the round." Today there are a lot of better and heavier bullets. I think I'd rather have a good old 158 SWC loaded to about 950fps in 4" than the 110 JHP. Lots better than jagged rocks, though!
AZretired
Member
The 110 +P+ was actually designed for the 2 1/2 in M-66. The Feds used it. Also if memory serves, it was the 125 JHP .357 Mag. at 1450 FPS that did the damage to forcing cones. the 110 gr. >357 is not loaded nearly as hot.
bmcgilvray
Member
I once chronographed some Winchester Western +P+ 110 grain ammunition that was put up and a plain white box and labeled "for law enforcement use only." It was obtained from a fellow who worked for the U.S. Treasury. It gave 1100 fps, on the nose, from my 4-inch Model 10 Heavy Barrel.
The Super Vel I've tested was even speedier when fired from the same revolver. A batch tested many years ago registered 1237 fps. Some more from that same batch, fired over the same chronograph, and from the same revolver gave 1195 fps a couple of months back.
The Super Vel I've tested was even speedier when fired from the same revolver. A batch tested many years ago registered 1237 fps. Some more from that same batch, fired over the same chronograph, and from the same revolver gave 1195 fps a couple of months back.
The 110GR JHP +P+ was known as the "treasury load" because it was developed for the Secret Seervice when they were part of the Treasury Department. Other treasury agencies and the Border patrol adopted it for varying lengths of time.
One thing that everyone should remember about +P+ loads is that there are NO industry standards for them. +P has an, industry standard which has been underloaded for years but +P+ is whatever the builder stuffs into the case. It seems from the previous posts that they are quite watered down from their original iteration(the original treasury load was rally fearsome).
The comments on light bullets are well taken, there was a time in the early 70s when speed was everything-turned out not to be so. A quote that is not mine; "bullet placement is king, penetration is queen, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin". I quite agree, I use the 158 SWCHP +P from Buffalo Bore for serious social encounters. Been using that round since it became regulation in the Chicago PD back in the 80s. It works, if you do your part (the bullet placement thing) it works all the time.
One thing that everyone should remember about +P+ loads is that there are NO industry standards for them. +P has an, industry standard which has been underloaded for years but +P+ is whatever the builder stuffs into the case. It seems from the previous posts that they are quite watered down from their original iteration(the original treasury load was rally fearsome).
The comments on light bullets are well taken, there was a time in the early 70s when speed was everything-turned out not to be so. A quote that is not mine; "bullet placement is king, penetration is queen, everything else is angels dancing on the head of a pin". I quite agree, I use the 158 SWCHP +P from Buffalo Bore for serious social encounters. Been using that round since it became regulation in the Chicago PD back in the 80s. It works, if you do your part (the bullet placement thing) it works all the time.
revolvergeek
Member
I seem to recall that IMI actually did offer a .357 Mag +p load with a 170 FMJ bullet back in the early '90s.
As far as I know, there was and is no SAAMI specification for +P in .357 magnum, so that would have just been an arbitrary designation given by the manufacturer.
Fearsome in muzzle flash or recoil in smaller frame guns, but one of the worst loads ever to be used by law enforcement as far as performance.
Good advice, likely either said by, or paraphrased from Martin Fackler, though in recent years, bullet technology has caught up a little. When Fackler and Wolberg were doing their studies in the 1980's, the difference in expansion between the good loads was minimal. Today there are loads that will expand to 3/4"-1" or more, while still penetrating 11"-13" in gel. The extra half inch wider wound channel gives lots more opportunity for damage to blood vessels and major organs along it's path, while still going deep enough to reach major vitals. The best of both worlds.
You're using a great load, one that works good in modern day testing, and has worked well in actual usage.
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