1866 vs 1873 lever action rifle?

[Hello86]

There really is no such thing as "knock down" power, especially when talking about such a mild handgun cartridge as the .38 Special. I won't go into it here; this topic has been beat to death on the forums.

I am looking to get the Miroku (Japanese) built Winchester '73 in .45 Colt myself. Since I handload my own ammo, I can make any variety of power for this rifle that I choose, and not be at the whims of the manufacture and supply chains. I had a chance to buy one at the Bass Pro in Spotsylvania, but passed on it for some reason. Haven't seen other in stock anywhere since.

The 1866 is nice, but ever since seeing James Stewart in the movie Winchester '73 way back in the 60's I have wanted one of these. Of course the originals were never made in .45 Colt, but I don't feel like adding .44-40 to my line-up.

Thanks for you reply. Yes the 1873 looks very nice too, and I have heard about the movie 1873 with James Stewart, I think I have to watch it

But correct me if I'm wrong? But from the pictures and videos I've seen, Uberti's version of 1873 seems to be more like the original than Miroku? Ubertis looks more "grayish" like the original, while Miroku looks all black, like an AR-15 in color or something? Looks more modern than Uberti from what I can see.

The 1866 receiver will not handle the pressure of .357 magnum. The 1873 will handle factory loads, but stout handloads should be avoided. My Italian 1873 popped the side plates loose and locked up the action after 5 rounds of HOT .357 mag. (Loads were within max recommended, but not by much.) After pulling the side plates and removing the internals, then putting everything back together, the rifle still functions as it should. It's days of .357 mag loads are over though. I'm leaving those to my 94.

Thanks, very good to know.

I have and use both in SASS matches. The 66 doesn't have the safety lock on the lever. The 73's are the most used in SASS, most often with a short stroke. The speed demons all prefer the 73.

My main match SASS gun is a Uberti 73 in 44-40, back up rifle is either my Dad's 66 from Navy Arms in .38 spl or his Marlin 1894 in .357 magnum.

Either in a .38 spl is not much more than a .22LR.....and just a hoot to go out and shoot.

Can't go wrong with either. Both use the same toggle action, the side plate of the 73 is slightly easier to remove for deep cleaning....

Randy

Thanks Randy. Yes seems to be very nice to shoot them, I can't wait to shoot.

I think you should buy the one you think is nicest looking, so that would be the Yellow Boy.

My choice of caliber would be 44/40, but that would require handloading (which, if you're cost conscious, you should definitely start doing!)

I also highly recommend black powder. It's not "risky" at all and is even safer than smokeless powder. It's impossible to blow a gun up with black powder cartridges...you can't fit enough into the case. Not so with smokeless. You can easily overcharge if you're not careful.

All three of those calibers would work great with black powder, although I'm partial to 44/40 since it is bottlenecked and seals the chamber very well.

Regarding your recoil question: either the 66 or the 73 are HEAVY guns. None of these calibers will recoil much, at all.

Regarding home defense: even if you're shooting factory loads, remember with the 38 special it's going to shoot like a 357 magnum out of a handgun. Out of a rifle you get 200-300 fps more, so I wouldn't worry about power for home defense. 38 special would do just fine.

Good luck!

Thanks smithra. Thats sounds very good.

The '66s are set up to shoot .38s. The '73 is set up to shoot .357s, and can cause problems with .38s. The '73 was designed to function with cartridges at or near 1.600" in length. Unlike later lever-actions there is no cartridge stop on either a '66 or a '73. As the action is cycled a round is fed out of the magazine tube onto the carrier. The nose bearing on the next round's base is the only thing keeping it in the mag tube. If the cartridge on the carrier isn't long enough, the base of the next round will come out far enough to be partially on the carrier, causing a jam. Most '73s require a cartridge overall length to be at least 1.450"; depending on the bullet you might have to seat it out of the .38 case to avoid a next-round jam. Some cowboy-action gunsmiths bevel the front edge of the carrier so it will cam the following round back into the tube enough to allow the carrier to lift. This can get tricky.
As mentioned by the poster above, you will likely get 200 or more fps out of the rifle than a revolver, making the .38 in a rifle roughly equal to a .357 in a pistol. Lot of variables (powder type and amount, bullet, barrel lengths).
I find the recoil out of my .38 20" 66 short rifle (octagonal barrel) just right; I know I'm shooting a centerfire but neither the blast nor recoil are in the least objectionable. There is noticeably more recoil from my 20" octagonal Marlin 1894 in .357.
Penetration is more a function of bullet style and weight, and especially velocity) than cartridge. A 158 gr. JSP at 1,000 fps out of a .38 is likely to penetrate more in common building materials than a thin-skin 125 gr hollowpoint at 1800 fps out of the magnum. The lighter, faster hollowpoint expands much more quickly, presenting much greater frontal area and therefore encountering greater resistance and slowing. But again, there are a lot of variables.

Thank you Venom. But some say that 38 special in a 1866 can cause problems too, like issues with the loading gate tab, that can break, is that true?


Can I shoot hollowpoint and +p ammunition in 38 special in the 1866?

Get the 1866 since it is the most aesthetically appealing to you. 38 spl, as others note above, is not a wimpy cartridge. It is a great choice for home defense, as well as plinking or target shooting.

Thanks Onomea, yes I think I will do that. Good points.

Have neither of the levers you mention, but a 24" Rossi 92 in .357. It fully tames recoil of .38/.357, but makes both calibers hit targets noticably faster and harder. So yes, shoots like a .22lr, but the shooting qualities are the fun part. The 24" long barrel of the Rossi is very quiet to shoot, especially the .38spl.
Got a 12ga for "kicks".

Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk

Thanks bigwheelzip, that sounds realy great.

I have an older Rossi Model 92 that shoots both 38 Spl and 357 Mag flawlessly. You can even mix/alternate them in the magazine. Good way to detect flinching. On the subject of carbine barrel length affecting cartridge performance, I can give you some info that might apply. Years back, I read an NRA pub review of the then-new Marlin Camp Carbine. They found that most 45ACP loads had higher velocities in the carbine than they achieved in several pistols they tried. The results for the 9mm were the opposite, lower velocities from the carbine barrel than from the pistols they tried.

Thanks for you answer erikpolcrack. How is that, there is higher velocities for 45ACP in carbines, but lower for 9mm in carbines than in pistols?

As others have noted, the 66 and 73 in rifle form are heavy and dampen perceived recoil so pleasant to shoot in any caliber. In your situation, I would opt for the caliber that's the cheapest to shoot because you want to plink with it. Recoil is irrelevant to my shooting enjoyment and can't imagine some cartridge being "too wimpy. I enjoy shooting .22 LR, .17 HMR, .22 RM. Recoil is neglent on those.

Thanks, good advice Inusuit.

I own a Miroku Winchester 1873 in 45 colt. It is a beautifully manufactured weapon, light recoil due to the weight of the gun too. I also load my own cartridges. Miroku makes some very nice guns, their quality and workmanship is superb.

Thanks Mike, nice pictures.

 

[AJ]

Have neither of the levers you mention, but a 24" Rossi 92 in .357. It fully tames recoil of .38/.357, but makes both calibers hit targets noticably faster and harder. So yes, shoots like a .22lr, but the shooting qualities are the fun part. The 24" long barrel of the Rossi is very quiet to shoot, especially the .38spl.
Got a 12ga for "kicks".

Sent from my motorola one 5G using Tapatalk

I have an older Rossi Model 92 that shoots both 38 Spl and 357 Mag flawlessly. You can even mix/alternate them in the magazine. Good way to detect flinching. On the subject of carbine barrel length affecting cartridge performance, I can give you some info that might apply. Years back, I read an NRA pub review of the then-new Marlin Camp Carbine. They found that most 45ACP loads had higher velocities in the carbine than they achieved in several pistols they tried. The results for the 9mm were the opposite, lower velocities from the carbine barrel than from the pistols they tried.

I had a Rossi 92 in 357 also. It was fun to shoot and not much recoil. Sold it when I bought my Pedersoli Colt Lightning. There are times when I think I should have kept it.

 

[erikpolcrack]

Follow up on my Marlin Camp Carbine review info. The authors said that the carbine barrel was long enough that all the 9mm's powder burned itself out well before the bullet left the barrel, so friction actually slowed the bullet down as it travelled the last few inches. In the case of the 45 ACP, there was enough powder to continue to burn all the way to the end of the barrel, continuously accelerating the bullet until it left the tube. Think about muzzle flashes. I know if you fire a hot magnum rifle cartridge from too short a barrel, you get a tremendous muzzle flash. That's powder that didn't completely burn in the too short barrel burning itself up outside the tube.

 

[Venom6]

Yes, the tab on Uberti 66s was changed over ten years ago, and they are notorious for breaking now. Replacements can be had from Track of the Wolf and VTI. In the smaller 66 calibers most of the stress is loaded onto the tab rather than the lip of the gate; .38 is the worst. There are also ways to reinforce the tab if one is handy (which I am not).

I don't know if Uberti rates their 66 for +P. Even if they did I wouldn't shoot a lot of it. Most +P runs at about 10% over its non-+P counterpart. The 66 uses a "brass" frame (actually a slightly different alloy) which is much softer than steel. All of the cartridge's backthrust is transmitted through the links to the frame. Even when the pins are bushed with steel, peening of the frame can occur with extensive use of high-pressure loads. This is why the steel-framed 73 can be made successfully in .357 but the 66 cannot.

As for increased velocity in a rifle barrel, the cartridge matters a lot. It is well documented (and you can prove it yourself with a chronograph) that revolver cartridges gain tremendously in the longer barrel. Brian Pearce has written extensively on this issue, and has gone so far as to equate the .357 in a rifle with the .30-30 in terms of performance on game. Speer manual #13 shows a max charge of 20.3 grains of 296 under a 125 gr. jacketed bullet as giving 1336 fps out of a six-inch revolver barrel, and 2125 fps out of an 18" Marlin. This is just one example; countless more are available. The increase is much less dramatic with the .38, but still very noticeable, usually in the 200-300 fps range increase depending on the load and the guns. I don't know about the 9mm or .45.

 

[smoothshooter]

I have an 1866 and a 1873. Both rifles, both Uberti’s in .44 Special caliber. They both have more drop in the buttstock than I would like, with the 1866 having noticeably more than the 1873.

 

[TheTinMan]

If you go to Ballistics by the Inch you can see the affect of barrel length. A 16" barrel appears to maximize velocity in 38 Special while .357 Magnum is still gaining velocity with an 18" barrel. Today, I don't think .357 Magnum is much more expensive than .38 Special and if home defense is a potential use there's no question which cartridge I would choose in a rifle. (Unless I lived in an apartment building...)

Personally, I would (and did) choose the 1873 in .357 Magnum. I have a Taylor (Uberti) that is both beautiful and a hoot to shoot. 20" rifle with pistol grip and full octagon barrel:

The side loading gate just seems "right" to me, as opposed to the 1866 which loads like my old .22.

 

[walter o]

My preference would be the UBERTI HENRY in 45 colt .I can see the connection to the SMITH& WESSON VOLCANIC .It is also fun to shoot
the cal.also goes along with the UBERTI SCHOFIELD OR one of the copies of the colt SA

 

[smoothshooter]

Great to know, thanks AJ.

What is somewhat confusing to me is that some people think that 38 special through a lever action rifle, gives more knock down power etc due to the longer barrel, while some write that it is probably the opposite, longer barrel worse, better knock down power through 38 special revolver. What do you think about that?

All but the very lightest loads will pick up around 100 to 200 fps in a rifle compared to a revolver.

 

[DR505]

All but the very lightest loads will pick up around 100 to 200 fps in a rifle compared to a revolver.

The increase in performance depends on the barrel length of the rifle, the cartridge involved, and the load...there is a point of diminishing returns.

 

[growr]

Reinforcing the loading gate tab on a 66 is very easy to do, requires the side plate be removed and then using JB weld to form a backer on the loading gate tab.

There are many videos showing all of this.

Randy

 

[CH4]

I also have a beautiful MirokuWinchester ‘73 in 45 Colt. It’s 1 of 300 made for CDNN. Fit and finish are suberb.

 

[kb1903]

miruko 1873

Another vote for this rifle in 45 Colt. Beautiful workmanship, great wood grain and my 12 year old grandson loves shooting it.
Expensive? Yes. Worth every penny? Yes.
Buy it once and cry once! Enjoy it for years to come, then pass down to younger generations to come.
That's my take for what it's worth. Ken

 

[Glashaus]

I have both an Uberti 66 in .38 Special and an Uberti 73 in .357 Magnum.

The 66 was a sporting rifle that was used in SASS competition, it has been modified, barrel shortened to 19", new sights, short stroke, new lifter. It is a very quick shooter. I bought it used. The 73 is a sporting rifle that I bought in like new condition. Both guns are a lot of fun to shoot, the 73 with a 24" octagon barrel is a big gun to be shooting .357 magnums out of and shooting .38 Specials is a lot of fun

I also have a 92 Winchester that was rebarrled to .44 Magnum, an Uberti 1860 Henry in 44-40 and another Uberti Sporting Rifle in .45 Colt

 

[max]

No exp with a 66 or 73. However, I have a Rossi M-92 in 357 and it also shoots 38 specials just fine. With heavy 357 loads you notice the recoil, but it is not bad.

 

[Babysitr]

Sounds to me like you need a Winchester/Miroku 1873 short rifle in .357...I have a Winchester 1892, but it is rather ammo picky...1873 not so much....I went 1892 because of the weight, and fit...came up better than the 1873 for me.....if I ever find a '73 in .357...it will come home

 

[smithra_66]

One more thing I'll add to this thread: If you do decide to go with the big bore, I'd posit a recommendation for the 44/40 over the 45 Colt.

Why? #1 it is authentic. They didn't make rifles in 45 Colt in the 19th century.

#2 the 44-40 is a superior black powder cartridge. It seals the chamber much better than 45 Colt. I've stopped shooting BP in my 45s because it is just filthy.

#3 IT WILL FORCE YOU TO GET INTO RELOADING AND YOU'LL SAVE MONEY IN THE LONG RUN!

. Let us know how you make out.

 

[Majer]

I have shot both the 66 & 73 in CAS for over 20 years, about 5 years ago I sold my 73 and have stayed with the 66 SRC in .38 special. I shoot it better,it is less finicky about ammo and is a shooting machine.Both my 66 & 73 were tricked out the same,Short stroke, better sights and action job. If you can find a local Cowboy Action shoot nearby, go and talk to the shooters, most will let you try their rifles after the shoot so you can get a feel for which will suit you best.

 

[Kimberpross]

Buy the one you like the looks best.

I have several firearms I bought because I liked the looks. I am not recoil sensitive so I am not a good reference on that. However, I own a couple 44 mag.lever actions and they are quite pleasant to shoot. Any of the cartridges you are considering will have less than a .44 mag. We gun people like to split hairs on calibers and cartridges and for your purposes, terminal performance is good enough with any of them and the 38 sp. would be like shooting a .22 mag. Probably.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

If you can find a local Cowboy Action shoot nearby, go and talk to the shooters, most will let you try their rifles after the shoot so you can get a feel for which will suit you best.

I always had at least one spare box of ammo for each gun with me! I loaned spare guns and ammo all the time.

I own a Uberti 73 in 44 Special. The full-length cartridge versions (357, 44 Special, and 45 Colt) are more sensitive to Cartridge Over All Length (COAL) than the shorter case version. Without a major modification I couldn't get the gun to shoot 44 Russian, no matter how I tried. As the bullet sits on the elevator, the bullet nose is the magazine cut off. There is a plus or minus, but not enough to accommodate 38 and 357 or in my case Special and Russian. (I'm a guy that tried a few 38 S&W's in my 357 Rossi 92. I had to disassemble the magazine to clear that mess!)

Having shot lever actions for over 50 years, I love the semi-short stroke action jobs!

Ivan

 

[TheTinMan]

Sounds to me like you need a Winchester/Miroku 1873 short rifle in .357...I have a Winchester 1892, but it is rather ammo picky...1873 not so much....I went 1892 because of the weight, and fit...came up better than the 1873 for me.....if I ever find a '73 in .357...it will come home

I have a couple of Miroku 1892s and they are beautiful firearms! Probably a good thing I bought the Uberti long ago. Otherwise I’d just have to get a Miroku 1873