1905 1st variation target - to refinish or not

[Göring's S&W]

So I know this question comes up a lot anways, but I really need to help making the decision, and I thought "who better to ask?". I won on gun broker a 1905 1st change target 38 special. Blue with wood grips. I bought it because I kind of always wanted one, but I didn't want to pay $1200 for one or $800 even. So I found this auction, the guy started it off for $99 but didn't list it as a target model. I got all excited thinking I'd get it for less than $200, but sure enough, someone else found it and ran it up a few bucks. I still got it for what I think is a fair price. My original plan was to buy and RESTORE it (not refinish). I was planning on having either S&W or Ford's of Florida do the job. I have several questions and I will include a poll for this. I would appreciate a post that explains your vote so that I can understand other people's opinions. Right now, I am on the fence. If I did restore the gun, I would have just under $600 in it but I would like to just shoot it and keep it for my personal collection. If you think I should have it restored, is it better to go to S&W because it would be a factory refinish or would it be better to choose Ford's because their work is incredible? In other words, if you were to buy a gun, which restoration is more acceptable or which restoration is more appealing to a collector, Fords or S&W? I also wondered if the grips were original since I never really saw that exact style before.

If I restore this gun, I would just keep it as a shooter/rare S&W example. On the other hand, if I don't restore it, given its condition, I don't see it steadily rising in value. I originally bought it as a compromise between wanting a rare S&W for my collection but also not wanting to pay retail for one.

So what do you guys think? Don't pull any punches!

Please share any pics of restored blued guns from S&W or Ford's. I'm also wondering if I go the restore route, should I do a standard blue or a high polish blue? I simply want the gun to look as close as it can to factory original.

Does anyone know when this gun was made, or at least an estimate? SN 115XXX

I don't have pics on this computer but the completed auction is on Gunbroker, item number 153589541

 

[s&wchad]

The serial number is listed between 1906 and 1909. That style stock was used before they went to the large gold medallions around 1910, so they're peried correct and could be original to the gun. Is the right panel numbered?

As to finish, I'd give it a good cleaning and leave it alone. There's still some original finish and it can always be redone later. It appears to have a number of initials scratched into it. Neat old gun with 100 years of history!

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

The factory will not restore it. They generally won't work on anything made before 1957, if I recall correctly. They might reblue it, but it will not ever be as good as the original for several reasons. First, the bluing process used today is entirely different. Second, in my experience with the factory in recent years I found their polishing to be less than I expected. Personally, I'd leave it alone. Any refinishing will detract from it's value as a collectible revolver.

Now having said that, one caveat. If the gun had 0% finish or was terribly abused with a worn or damaged finish I'd say go for the restoration at Ford's. I did it a few times and made back my investment in the restoration easily. In your case though, I don't think the finish is bad enough to justify it. It looks like a shooter and from what you've said, that should be ok with you. Best of luck and enjoy that fine old revolver!

Lefty

 

[DCWilson]

I voted to leave it alone. I don't think S&W would touch a gun as old as this one (about 1908, I think), and I'm not sure even a competent service like Ford's could make this look as new as you may be hoping it will look.

My preference would be to disassemble it completely, give every part the mother of all cleanings, and then reassemble it as a collectible, shooter, whatever. You have a really nice early target model at an excellent price. I don't know how many of these were made, but there can't be many of this vintage left.

I think the best way to honor this gun is to clean it up and treat it in a way that will keep it from losing any more ground. Ever scratch and pit on it is part of its history. I would rather have the gun in this condition than nipped, tucked, and botoxed into an imitation of something it can never be again.

Great score. Congratulations.

 

[Texas Star]

By the way, you may want to edit your board name. Are you trying to say, Goering's S&W? Check the spelling.

He did have one like your avatar on him when he surrendered to US troops in 1945.

T-Star

 

[Göring's S&W]

Texas Star

Apparently you underestimate my fascination with the 3rd reich. The head of the Luftwaffe's name is correctly spelled "Goring" with an umlaut O which is correct for the German language. It is however commonly spelled in the way you suggested, due to the English language not using the umlaut. I suppose I could change it since I don't have the umlaut but I would rather spell it in the German fashion regardless.

Regarding his revolver, my avatar IS the revolver that he owned and surrendered. It is currently in the West Point military museum. Its there because he surrended armed with the revolver in question. 16 WWII Surrender Exhibit. In the pic you can clearly see the revolver that is my avatar and in this pic you can see his baton which he also had at surrender. Also, in my avatar, you can see the upper tip of his holster which is pictured in the West Point photo under his revolver. My avatar is simply a picture of this exhibit. His revolver, based on SN of 642XXX is a 1905 4th change M&P 4in with service sights. It always amazed me that he wanted a S&W 38 special M&P when he was powerful and influential enough to have almost any gun he wanted through honest or dishonest means. He chose a S&W. I'm sure he had Colt's too but he carried a S&W. I'm not saying he was a firearms expert but the fact remains he could have had any gun he wanted and chose a S&W. Kind of like Patton, one SAA, one RM. These guys only could have the best of the best and they chose guns from our country. I take it as a compliment to our manufacturing quality at the time.

 

[Sebago Son]

I put up a few snaps for you....

Hope you don't mind. I think this will stimulate and further the conversation.

In my view this fine old Smith would really benefit from a detailed cleaning and a long term, non-invasive process of finish restoration. By that I DO NOT mean a polish and reblue, but rather a regime that will bring back the surface luster now obscured by gunk and surface rust.

I've undertaken just such a project many times with Smith & Wessons, Colts and Winchesters and while it may take many months, the result is startlingly good.

What you will end up with is the best possible presentation of the remaining, existing finish without altering the gun.

This would be more appealing to collectors and others viewing this gun and at the same time preserve and enhance as much as possible it's future value.

A garish polish and bright reblue would, in my view make this revolver not only unappealing, but a shame.

Here's your gun:

Drew
1802

 

[flagman1776]

I would urge you to rub the gun down with a good gun oil & a soft patch... to kill the rust. I'd absolutely leave the gun with it's original finish & patina. It is part of her now, part of her history. To refinsh, would turn her into just another shooter & in the eyes of collectors REDUCE it's value. Why would you spend money to reduce it's value?

What you want to do is preserve her from further deterioration. Some use wax on the exterior... Protect this fine old girl.

Russ

 

[cgt4570]

I have its near-twin. A 1905 no change I picked up on GB a couple years ago the same way. Poorly described with bad pictures. I got it for about a hundred and a half. Mine looks rough but works great. If I were you, I wouldn't touch it. As a scarce target sighted gun, it will be worth more if not refinished. I appreciate the honest wear without abuse.

 

[mikepriwer]

Get some RB-17 cleaner - its great for removing rust. Bolsa
Gunsmithing 714-894-9100 carries it, and will ship it. Its a paste-like
compound, and you use it with 0000 steel wool.

Restoring the gun would be pointless. Its not worth that much now,
and never will be. Only really high-original-condition guns have
significant value.

Refinishing will make it look nicer, but with any dings and pits and
scars, etc, it will not look very nice.

I agree with the others - just clean it up, and do what you can to
restore what blue is left.

Drew- What is the process you describe, to restore the finish ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[1066]

Goring:

Here is a link on the same site to a close up of just the gun:

20 Herman Goering's Smith & Wesson Military and Police Model K .38 Revolver

Very nice choice!

 

[mod34]

I voted to leave it alone as well. Give some Happy Valentine's TLC and it will remain loyal forever. I love these old beauties and find their patina to be a facinating part of the history. Enjoy it as is.

 

[Sebago Son]

Drew- What is the process you describe, to restore the finish ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike,

Perhaps "Restore" is not the correct word, but in the sense that the origional finish is no longer obscured by rust discoloration it is a "Restorative Process".

That having been said, I have found that certain light oils seem to penetrate the surface of the metal and brighten the blue when left in contact for a long period. Intermittant polishing with bulap and very finely crushed hardwood charcoal followed by wiping with a soft white patch removes deep rust discoloration and makes black pits less obvious.

This is a very old Winchester collector's trick and I have found that it does indeed work albeit slowly, without tell-tale 'cleaning marks'.

Drew
1802

 

[ptrumble1]

Use Vasoline and sharpened brass to cut the surface rust--ole antique trick, I learned--