1905 2nd Change????

[Jmac1773]

Hey all - new here/first post. So glad I found this place!! I'm just getting into C&R (again) and S&W is one of my interests.

I just got (what the GB add said was a Model of 1905, 2nd change) in the mail today. I just want to make sure I got what I paid for - even though I got a good deal on it. I think.

1. Hand ejector
2. 45442
3. 32 Winchester CTG
5. 5" Barrel
6. Fixed Sights
7. Has strain screw
8. No lanyard ring
9. 5-screw

Would love an approximate year of manufacture - I've heard the 2nd change models can cause some confusion as to the year due to overlapping serial numbers.

Approximate value?

I will owe all those with information a virtual beer.

PS - I have more pics but I reached my limit.

 

[delcrossv]

IIRC, the model of 1903 is the RB and the '05 is the square butt. So Model of 1903, 2nd change. Probably 1910-1912 or thereabouts. Someone with SCSW or a S/N list can get you closer.

Interesting front sight. Looks modified.

Value? $400-500 around here.

 

[Absalom]

No problem with overlap on that serial 45442.

It‘s a Third Change which started at 45201 in 1909, acc. to the SCSW.

 

[Muley Gil]

IIRC, the model of 1903 is the RB and the '05 is the square butt. So Model of 1903, 2nd change. Probably 1910-1912 or thereabouts. Someone with SCSW or a S/N list can get you closer.

Interesting front sight. Looks modified.

Value? $400-500 around here.

Model 1902, not Model 1903.

Welcome to the Forum, Jmac1773.

 

[Jmac1773]

So... it's really a 1903, 2nd change (maybe 3rd change) made 1909-12?

Also thanks for the warm welcome and all the info!!

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. Your revolver is likely a 32 Winchester Military & Police, 3rd Change Round Butt. I say this because Roy Jinks book states that 3rd Change revolvers were from 45,201 to 65,700, but in reality, the gun would have to be taken apart to find the small changes made from the 2nd to 3rd Change. Your number is very close to the transition. The 3rd Change was manufactured from 1909 to 1915, so your revolver likely shipped in 1909 or 1910.

The factory catalogs of the era clearly state that the round butt is called a Model 1902 and the square butt is named a 1905, but many books and authors will state that the change from 1902 to 1905 was by serial number and engineering changes, not butt design. That is why I tend to not use the date to name these guns.

As for value, the gun is nice, but shows definite wear. The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson from 2016 states that this model in "Good Condition" is worth $400 and that still seems to be in the ball park for today's value.

 

[JP@AK]

Welcome Jmac1773

Gary gave you good information (as usual).

According to my records (derived from dates provided by Dr. Jinks) there is a slew of .32-20 HE revolvers in your serial range (from 43000 to 47000) that shipped in 1910. I'd say that year likely applied to yours also, but no guarantees. Certainty requires a letter.

 

[Jmac1773]

Thanks to everyone for their responses!! I greatly appreciate the effort.

 

[rct269]

The bottom line on this model designation (190 something this or that) vs. this "change" or that is the model designation stems from what the factory called them at the time, vs. what a group of collectors put together later---pick one.

One might think of it as different as opposed to right or wrong.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[4K2022]

Welcome to the Forum. Your revolver is likely a 32 Winchester Military & Police, 3rd Change Round Butt. I say this because Roy Jinks book states that 3rd Change revolvers were from 45,201 to 65,700, but in reality, the gun would have to be taken apart to find the small changes made from the 2nd to 3rd Change. Your number is very close to the transition. The 3rd Change was manufactured from 1909 to 1915, so your revolver likely shipped in 1909 or 1910.

The factory catalogs of the era clearly state that the round butt is called a Model 1902 and the square butt is named a 1905, but many books and authors will state that the change from 1902 to 1905 was by serial number and engineering changes, not butt design. That is why I tend to not use the date to name these guns.

As for value, the gun is nice, but shows definite wear. The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson from 2016 states that this model in "Good Condition" is worth $400 and that still seems to be in the ball park for today's value.

The Bible (S&W) highlights the 2 pins in the extractor star & cylinder as being a visual engineering change for a Second Change,, what else? I use the 32 WCF barrel stamping as the entry into the 3rd Change (usually) gets me close. But I find The 32-20 Winchester Black Powder cartridge an interesting Product for S&W history. Don’t know when those two pins show up on the Second Change,,, but I believe it’s deep in the ser# range 42,000 and up And “they” (should) have the caliber stamp on the Left side of the barrel.

 

[mikepriwer]

I notice that no one has commented on the front sight, which appears to have been filed on, to make it something like a Patridge blade.

The problem with engineering changes and model numbers is that the Neal & Jinks methodology makes them incompatible. Everything before sn 18126 (32-20) or 62450 (38) will letter as a Model of 1902, and everything after that boundary will letter as a Model of 1905 - except for the Model of 1899. This is not reality.

The Model of 1905 starts at 58000 (38) and some other serial number for the 32-20. In other words, the square butt model is introduced near the end of the 4-screw 1902 1st change range. Since the Model of 1902 and Model of 1905 are other-wise identical (except for butt configuration), then the engineering change levels have to be identical.

This means that, if we want to include engineering change levels in combination with model designation, then the square butt gun with serial number 58000 is really a Model of 1905 1st change.

The factory did not care about this, because they did not use engineering change levels in their naming of the revolvers: sn 57999 is a model of 1902 (because of its round butt) and sn 58000 is a model of 1905 (because of its square butt).

Neal & Jinks has created this dilemma because apparently because they did not want to recognize the unfortunate reality that the early square butt frames are 1905 1st changes, and not 1905 - when adding the engineering change level to the model name. An unfortunate result of this is that they have to restart the engineering change level, and eliminate the model of 1902.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[DWalt]

Absolutely agree. Keep in mind that the "changes" are pure fabrications of S&W collectors (Roper and McHenry) back in the 1930s to distinguish among minor evolutionary engineering modifications made to the basic M&P design. And their book wasn't even published until 1945. S&W itself never used the "change" as part of its nomenclature terminology. Also, in S&W's advertising of the pre-WWI period, S&W proclaimed that the difference between the Model of 1902 and the Model of 1905 was that the former had a round butt and the latter had a square butt. Nothing about how many screws or where. Enough said. This sideshow has been discussed and argued to death dozens if not hundreds of times here in the past.

 

[mikepriwer]

This sideshow has been discussed and argued to death dozens if not hundreds of times here in the past.

DWalt

Yes, but we are still in the same boat - nothing has changed.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[4K2022]

I see! Said the blind man to his deaf wife in the fog.

I’ll rephrase my question. Pertaining to the 32-20 (Rb or Sb) at what Serial number do the 2 alignment pins begin to appear on the cylinder? I’ve been fishing for them, so I can say Sq butt # 42,9xx doesn’t have them.