I wonder what the pros and cons are of having a barrel bushing of the 1911 design vs not having one like in the Hi Power. I realize that the barrel link in 1911 vs barrel lug in Hi Power probably affects how the muzzle end of the barrel moves during firing and makes a bushing necessary in the 1911, but that's just my speculation. My main question is whether the bushing is critical and how it affects the firearm's accuracy and reliability.
1911 vs Hi Power
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From an engineering point of view, I am not sure.
But I would hate to fire any of my 1911 style guns without the bushing. It would not be a pretty sight. The 1911 works great as made.
The Hi Power works well as designed but just not my choice of carry / duty weapon.
But I would hate to fire any of my 1911 style guns without the bushing. It would not be a pretty sight. The 1911 works great as made.
The Hi Power works well as designed but just not my choice of carry / duty weapon.
Welcome to the Forum.
IIRC, a few 1911 style semiautos have been built where the barrel was cone shaped and there was no bushing in the front of the slide.
IIRC, a few 1911 style semiautos have been built where the barrel was cone shaped and there was no bushing in the front of the slide.
Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
Neither one has proven itself to be particularly accurate or reliable...
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I think the bushing type would lend itself more readily to precision hand fitting.
But both my entry level RIA 1911 and bushingless Ruger P90 are accurate enough for what I use them for. I suppose a good 'smith could tweek my 1911 but I'm honestly not good enough to notice any difference.
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I think the bushing type would lend itself more readily to precision hand fitting.
But both my entry level RIA 1911 and bushingless Ruger P90 are accurate enough for what I use them for. I suppose a good 'smith could tweek my 1911 but I'm honestly not good enough to notice any difference.
The way I see it, is that both have their advantages and disadvantages.
The 1911 design allows a wear part to be easily replaced or fitted. The barrel to bushing interface. However, you have the "stacking" of tolerances of barrel to bushing and bushing to slide fit to contend with.
On the High Power design, the barrel to slide fit is not easily adjusted or replaced but you only deal with one variable.
Interesting to note that most desendents of the Browning designs favor the HighPower route.
Sort of a "pick your poison" choice. Both work and with modern machining methods and materials, both work well.
The 1911 design allows a wear part to be easily replaced or fitted. The barrel to bushing interface. However, you have the "stacking" of tolerances of barrel to bushing and bushing to slide fit to contend with.
On the High Power design, the barrel to slide fit is not easily adjusted or replaced but you only deal with one variable.
Interesting to note that most desendents of the Browning designs favor the HighPower route.
Sort of a "pick your poison" choice. Both work and with modern machining methods and materials, both work well.
Evil Dog
US Veteran
A few generations of bullseye shooters would tend to disagree with you on that point. The 1911 has ruled Outdoor Pistol seemingly forever.
Fish was joking
I would have to agree. Most well made 1911's will shoot better than most people can make them shoot right out of the box.
The Hi Power as well as the 1911 have loyal followers all over the world.
Myself, I can think of better options in an all steel double stack 9MM. But that's just my preference.
The two things I hate the most about the Hi power is the mag disconnect and the trigger. The 1911 triggers are inherently better and easier to work on.
Both are accurate enough for social work.
kscardsfan
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Man you sure opened a big can of worms with this one lol
lol
Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
Man you sure opened a big can of worms with this one
Need a bigger "winking" emoticon.
Peter J.
Member
The engining differences are minmal, to me. I own and shoot a good number of both 1911's and Hi-Powers. IMHO the only real difference between the two guns is the trade off on initial stopping power between .45 vs. 9mm rounds. Is 13 rounds of 9mm in a magazine prefferable to 7/8 rounds of .45 acp? I side with a lesser amount of .45 in a mag, but still really like both guns.
sipowicz
Member
I enjoy shooting my Hi-Power more than my 1911. It's the most natural pointer for me and the size fits my hand perfectly...I also enjoy cleaning it more since it's easier to take down.
OFT II
US Veteran
I'm waiting for old John to work the bugs out of those new designs before I make any comments on either one.
The bushing on the 1911 is critical for accuracy. Since it is a replaceable part, it is easily replaced with a tuned match grade bushing.
Just trying to catch a fish...
Would you mind elaborating on that a bit?
BTW not really trying to open a can of worms. Just we have some engineering opinions over here, but not a lot of practical experience so looking for feedback from people who use the guns. So, definitely hope worms translates to a thought-provoking discussion.
Would you mind elaborating on that a bit?
BTW not really trying to open a can of worms.
Just we have some engineering opinions over here, but not a lot of practical experience so looking for feedback from people who use the guns. So, definitely hope worms translates to a thought-provoking discussion.
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Would you mind elaborating on that a bit?
BTW not really trying to open a can of worms.
That's just me. The Hi Power fits my hand very well. And I've handled many as well as shot them. I've owned two. I didn't what to spend the money to bring them up to "my" standards.
Although not neccessarily all steel with a SA trigger, there are better double stack 9MM's IMO. But again, that's me.
When comparing a decent 1911 and the Hi Power, FOR ME, the 1911 wins every time UNLESS the Hi Power has been tuned by a knowledgeable gunsmith.
The recently passed Hi Power guru Steven Camp explains tuning the Hi Power for self defense on his website.
sub-moa
US Veteran
While I too worship at the altar of JMB...the man was an absolute genius, there is no doubt his role in the actual development of what we recognize as the " Browning Hi Power", le Grande Puissance, or P35 has been, well…over-emphasized. Yep…I know, fire up the torches 
.
With that heresy said, it's interesting that by late 1927...the year following JMBs death, in anticipation of the expiration of the Colt/Browning Patent of 02/19/11, FNs Dieudonne Joseph Saive did a complete "re-design" of their 1926 Grande Rendement pistol (itself an extensive design evolution, also by DJS, of the original JMB locked breech design of 1923). This resulted in a pistol virtually anyone would recognize as a "Browning Hi Power", and while FN retained the JMB barrel lug design...which most love…as well as the pivot back/pivot up/pivot down/pivot up/pivot forward JMB trigger mechanism design...most are less than fond of, the 1927 pistol was different from the original 1923 JMB design in more ways than it was similar.
The significance of the 1927 design to this particular discussion, is the change to a 1911 barrel bushing assembly. This was very short lived though as, having found no advantage to the design, FN reverted to the permanent barrel bushing we know today.
These truths ought to provide comfort to devotees of the JMB 1911…who find themselves less fond of the Saive P35.
.With that heresy said, it's interesting that by late 1927...the year following JMBs death, in anticipation of the expiration of the Colt/Browning Patent of 02/19/11, FNs Dieudonne Joseph Saive did a complete "re-design" of their 1926 Grande Rendement pistol (itself an extensive design evolution, also by DJS, of the original JMB locked breech design of 1923). This resulted in a pistol virtually anyone would recognize as a "Browning Hi Power", and while FN retained the JMB barrel lug design...which most love…as well as the pivot back/pivot up/pivot down/pivot up/pivot forward JMB trigger mechanism design...most are less than fond of, the 1927 pistol was different from the original 1923 JMB design in more ways than it was similar.
The significance of the 1927 design to this particular discussion, is the change to a 1911 barrel bushing assembly. This was very short lived though as, having found no advantage to the design, FN reverted to the permanent barrel bushing we know today.
These truths ought to provide comfort to devotees of the JMB 1911…who find themselves less fond of the Saive P35
.What was the change?
kscardsfan
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I like the basic designs of both guns. Can't say as I would want to claim one or the other though.
sub-moa
US Veteran
Uhm.....
"The significance of the 1927 design to this particular discussion, is the change to a 1911 barrel bushing assembly. This was very short lived though as, having found no advantage to the design, FN reverted to the permanent barrel bushing we know today."
From JMBs original tool room prototype pistols, to the FN/Val Browning 1922 French Trials pistols followed by the FN/DJS evolutionary improved 1923 pistols for the 1925 French Trials thru the FN/DJS 1926 Grand Rendement pistols, all models long and short had a fixed barrel bushing and recoil spring seat. The complete re-design of 1927 by FN/DJS that resulted in the 1927/28 pistols mentioned above replaced the fixed barrel bushing/recoil spring seat with a removable barrel bushing assembly ala 1911. The next FN/DJS design, 1929 Model also included the 1911 removable barrel bushing assembly, but the 1930/31 FN/DJS design reverted back to the simpler fixed barrel bushing. The fixed bushing was retained for all Grande Puissance/P35/Browning Hi Power pistols that followed...right up thru today.
I had fit a "coned" bushingless barrel to a Springfield Armory over 25 years ago, and it shot and still does shoot as well or better than I can shoot it. I also have a RIA compact (3 1/2") 1911 with a "coned" bushingless barrel and it shoots nearly as well as the Springfield. Bushings can be replaced and refit, but I haven't worn out the lock up of either of these yet to worry about it.
So, my understanding is that you use the term "fixed barrel bushing" meaning "bushingless" design?
On the related topic, it seems like Kimber's "Ultra" line of models has no barrel bushing, although these are 1911-type of pistols. Kimber did make a modification to the barrel though, which looks more like a bull barrel rather than the traditional 1911. But I have to admit that I haven't had a chance to see the barrel closely, so I don't know if it's conical or straight at the muzzle end.
But again, I don't mean to start a discussion about a particular line of Kimber guns, as those are high quality, expensive products, so they're not truly representative of any specific design's performance (i.e. 1911 or Hi-Power). Nor do I mean to delve into the specifics of using custom-made, well fitted bull barrels. My primary interest, at least at this point, is the pros and cons of the bushing vs bushingless desings, in pistol as they come off the assembly line, without any elaborate custom fitting, much less part replacements.
venomballistics
Member
I sit in the 1911 camp.
I wouldnt turn down a hi power either, but lets face it, 1911 vs hi power is like comparing a Porsche 911 to a Ford Mustang. Both classic designs that embody performance and really just differing balances of attributes.
just as it is relatively easy to spend some time in the shop with the pony and turn out a street terror, so too can one spend some time at the work bench and show a 1911 the same kinda love.
I wouldnt turn down a hi power either, but lets face it, 1911 vs hi power is like comparing a Porsche 911 to a Ford Mustang. Both classic designs that embody performance and really just differing balances of attributes.
just as it is relatively easy to spend some time in the shop with the pony and turn out a street terror, so too can one spend some time at the work bench and show a 1911 the same kinda love.
imjin138
US Veteran
I own both models and I have shot both I prefer the Hi Power. It fits me well, I have fired a Hi Power in 40 S&W and didn't like that. I missed buying one in 30 luger by an hour and wish I was driving faster.
I am not sure I would get rid of any of my 1911s but it is nice to have choices.
I am not sure I would get rid of any of my 1911s but it is nice to have choices.
sipowicz
Member
The HP is the Porsche...right?
So would a 1911 without a bushing but rather a coned barrel or bushing on the barrel not be a true 1911?
As to the mag safety on the BHP it is the easiest thing to remove and improve the trigger 100%. Perhaps it was designed with the mag safety due to the lack of a grip safety??
To me the BHP is pretty much a 9mm 1911. As Sip mentioned, the ergonomics are excellent and much easier to field strip and clean. It's also less fussy on shooting. My HP Practical is my most accurate gun.
As to the mag safety on the BHP it is the easiest thing to remove and improve the trigger 100%. Perhaps it was designed with the mag safety due to the lack of a grip safety??
To me the BHP is pretty much a 9mm 1911. As Sip mentioned, the ergonomics are excellent and much easier to field strip and clean. It's also less fussy on shooting. My HP Practical is my most accurate gun.
johnsonl
Member
I have owned both. I still have the HiPower.
Aside from the Porsche and Mustang being status symbols (which is not a subject of this discussion), but from a purely engineering point of view, it's all about tolerances. The Germans squeeze more horse power/better overall performance out of the same size of engine as Ford does. But tighter tolerances come at a premium price, hence the price difference - a Porsche can be 10 times more expensive (again, aside from the projected "symbolism" of having a Porsche vs Mustang). Same in Model 1911 - it makes me think that having a well fitted barrel bushing requires a tighter tolerance between the barrel and the bushing. It doesn't matter that the bushing itself is a $20 part - the manufacturer still has to use lower (tighter) tolerances making the barrel-bushing assembly which probably translates into a higher manufacturing cost. The Hi Power doesn't have to deal with such tolerances, maybe that's why J.M.B. preferred a bushingless design in his subsequent model.
Regarding spending time in the shop that Venomballistics mentioned, one can make a pig fly after enough time in the shop is spent
What you get after some serious fitting/customization, can easily be a whole different gun, not representative of either the 1911 or Hi Power family. I guess my focus is not what can be done to a single gun to make it hit certain benchmarks, but which technology - that of 1911 or Hi Power - allows for better performance (and by the way, thank you all those who already expressed their opinion on this, I hope to see some more discussion)...
venomballistics
Member
Aside from the Porsche and Mustang being status symbols (which is not a subject of this discussion), but from a purely engineering point of view, it's all about tolerances. The Germans squeeze more horse power/better overall performance out of the same size of engine as Ford does. But tighter tolerances come at a premium price, hence the price difference - a Porsche can be 10 times more expensive (again, aside from the projected "symbolism" of having a Porsche vs Mustang). Same in Model 1911 - it makes me think that having a well fitted barrel bushing requires a tighter tolerance between the barrel and the bushing. It doesn't matter that the bushing itself is a $20 part - the manufacturer still has to use lower (tighter) tolerances making the barrel-bushing assembly which probably translates into a higher manufacturing cost. The Hi Power doesn't have to deal with such tolerances, maybe that's why J.M.B. preferred a bushingless design in his subsequent model.
Regarding spending time in the shop that Venomballistics mentioned, one can make a pig fly after enough time in the shop is spent
Ill take the analogy one step farther.
the Porsche Vs Mustang 400K mile challenge.
the pony solidy has the advantage since parts to replace the dead ones are far more widely available, in large quantity, thus lower cost ... just like the 1911
