1911 vs Hi Power

[H Richard]

I had fit a "coned" bushingless barrel to a Springfield Armory over 25 years ago, and it shot and still does shoot as well or better than I can shoot it. I also have a RIA compact (3 1/2") 1911 with a "coned" bushingless barrel and it shoots nearly as well as the Springfield. Bushings can be replaced and refit, but I haven't worn out the lock up of either of these yet to worry about it.

 

[gun4frog]

... but the 1930/31 FN/DJS design reverted back to the simpler fixed barrel bushing. The fixed bushing was retained for all Grande Puissance/P35/Browning Hi Power pistols that followed...right up thru today.

So, my understanding is that you use the term "fixed barrel bushing" meaning "bushingless" design?

On the related topic, it seems like Kimber's "Ultra" line of models has no barrel bushing, although these are 1911-type of pistols. Kimber did make a modification to the barrel though, which looks more like a bull barrel rather than the traditional 1911. But I have to admit that I haven't had a chance to see the barrel closely, so I don't know if it's conical or straight at the muzzle end.

But again, I don't mean to start a discussion about a particular line of Kimber guns, as those are high quality, expensive products, so they're not truly representative of any specific design's performance (i.e. 1911 or Hi-Power). Nor do I mean to delve into the specifics of using custom-made, well fitted bull barrels. My primary interest, at least at this point, is the pros and cons of the bushing vs bushingless desings, in pistol as they come off the assembly line, without any elaborate custom fitting, much less part replacements.

 

[venomballistics]

I sit in the 1911 camp.
I wouldnt turn down a hi power either, but lets face it, 1911 vs hi power is like comparing a Porsche 911 to a Ford Mustang. Both classic designs that embody performance and really just differing balances of attributes.
just as it is relatively easy to spend some time in the shop with the pony and turn out a street terror, so too can one spend some time at the work bench and show a 1911 the same kinda love.

 

[imjin138]

I own both models and I have shot both I prefer the Hi Power. It fits me well, I have fired a Hi Power in 40 S&W and didn't like that. I missed buying one in 30 luger by an hour and wish I was driving faster.

I am not sure I would get rid of any of my 1911s but it is nice to have choices.

 

[sipowicz]

I sit in the 1911 camp.
I wouldnt turn down a hi power either, but lets face it, 1911 vs hi power is like comparing a Porsche 911 to a Ford Mustang. Both classic designs that embody performance and really just differing balances of attributes.

The HP is the Porsche...right?

 

[Rule3]

So would a 1911 without a bushing but rather a coned barrel or bushing on the barrel not be a true 1911?

As to the mag safety on the BHP it is the easiest thing to remove and improve the trigger 100%. Perhaps it was designed with the mag safety due to the lack of a grip safety??

To me the BHP is pretty much a 9mm 1911. As Sip mentioned, the ergonomics are excellent and much easier to field strip and clean. It's also less fussy on shooting. My HP Practical is my most accurate gun.

 

[therevjay]

You can argue all day about which design is the best. Bottom line? It don't matter, they both are brilliant.

Pick either, you can't lose.

 

[johnsonl]

I have owned both. I still have the HiPower.

 

[gun4frog]

... but lets face it, 1911 vs hi power is like comparing a Porsche 911 to a Ford Mustang. Both classic designs that embody performance and really just differing balances of attributes.
just as it is relatively easy to spend some time in the shop with the pony and turn out a street terror, so too can one spend some time at the work bench and show a 1911 the same kinda love.

The HP is the Porsche...right?

Aside from the Porsche and Mustang being status symbols (which is not a subject of this discussion), but from a purely engineering point of view, it's all about tolerances. The Germans squeeze more horse power/better overall performance out of the same size of engine as Ford does. But tighter tolerances come at a premium price, hence the price difference - a Porsche can be 10 times more expensive (again, aside from the projected "symbolism" of having a Porsche vs Mustang). Same in Model 1911 - it makes me think that having a well fitted barrel bushing requires a tighter tolerance between the barrel and the bushing. It doesn't matter that the bushing itself is a $20 part - the manufacturer still has to use lower (tighter) tolerances making the barrel-bushing assembly which probably translates into a higher manufacturing cost. The Hi Power doesn't have to deal with such tolerances, maybe that's why J.M.B. preferred a bushingless design in his subsequent model.

Regarding spending time in the shop that Venomballistics mentioned, one can make a pig fly after enough time in the shop is spent What you get after some serious fitting/customization, can easily be a whole different gun, not representative of either the 1911 or Hi Power family. I guess my focus is not what can be done to a single gun to make it hit certain benchmarks, but which technology - that of 1911 or Hi Power - allows for better performance (and by the way, thank you all those who already expressed their opinion on this, I hope to see some more discussion)...

 

[venomballistics]

Aside from the Porsche and Mustang being status symbols (which is not a subject of this discussion), but from a purely engineering point of view, it's all about tolerances. The Germans squeeze more horse power/better overall performance out of the same size of engine as Ford does. But tighter tolerances come at a premium price, hence the price difference - a Porsche can be 10 times more expensive (again, aside from the projected "symbolism" of having a Porsche vs Mustang). Same in Model 1911 - it makes me think that having a well fitted barrel bushing requires a tighter tolerance between the barrel and the bushing. It doesn't matter that the bushing itself is a $20 part - the manufacturer still has to use lower (tighter) tolerances making the barrel-bushing assembly which probably translates into a higher manufacturing cost. The Hi Power doesn't have to deal with such tolerances, maybe that's why J.M.B. preferred a bushingless design in his subsequent model.

Regarding spending time in the shop that Venomballistics mentioned, one can make a pig fly after enough time in the shop is spent What you get after some serious fitting/customization, can easily be a whole different gun, not representative of either the 1911 or Hi Power family. I guess my focus is not what can be done to a single gun to make it hit certain benchmarks, but which technology - that of 1911 or Hi Power - allows for better performance (and by the way, thank you all those who already expressed their opinion on this, I hope to see some more discussion)...

Ill take the analogy one step farther.
the Porsche Vs Mustang 400K mile challenge.
the pony solidy has the advantage since parts to replace the dead ones are far more widely available, in large quantity, thus lower cost ... just like the 1911

 

[sub-moa]

So, my understanding is that you use the term "fixed barrel bushing" meaning "bushingless" design?

WADR, I'm not clear as to how one would arrive at that "understanding", but it would be an incorrect "understanding". I simply pointed out that FN toyed with the 1911 removable barrel bushing design in late '20s prototypes...discovered that design offered no advantage, and reverted to their original "Fixed Barrel Bushing" design for production P35 pistols. A "Fixed Barrel Bushing" design is not a "bushingless" design.

There's a whole involved history of JMBs evolving locking systems...and the muzzle support designs that evolved to support them. Suffice it to say that each design had both strong and less strong points. The final designs; Swinging Link (ala 1911), Single Lug (ala BHP) and Lug/Hood (ala Sig/Glock) locking designs each are best served with different barrel guide/bushing arrangements. Consequently, there are different removable barrel bushing systems as well a semi-permanent and permanent systems. The BHP is meant to be permanent in that it is press fit into the front of the slide. Others are machined - one with the slide, threaded or welded to the slide and/or locked with any number of indents or set screws.

Even the "bushingless" design, which evolved from the original 1911 removable bushing design, uses the inside diameter of the slide mating with the larger diameter coned barrel to form a bushing interface.

 

[Darkenfast]

I was trained on the 1911 during my Navy career, but the only firearm I currently own is a Hi-Power. My example (a "C" series from the early 70's), has a perfectly acceptable trigger. I think a lot of the differences between the two weapons are only important if you switch back and forth from one to another, and are simply non-issues to most of the service-oriented users who stick with one pistol for long periods. During the 50's, 60's, and 70's, the BHP had a lot of success around the world as the service auto of choice. The way it fits so many hands is (IMHO), it's greatest attribute. Personally, to me, it's a lot like a 3-inch barreled K-frame in size, weight and feel. While Saive may have had a lot more input to the final design than he is given credit for, I still see it as a natural development from the earlier Browning autos.

 

[msgdan]

Have a couple of 1911's and love them. Never owned a Hi Power but I hope to some day. The way I see it they are both brilliant John Browning designs. You can't go wrong with either one. It just comes down to what you prefer. A win-win situation either way.

 

[Out West]

If the 1911 is a Porche, and the Hi Power is a Mustang, is a CZ 75 a Saab?

Out
West

 

[SASABERANGER]

Some of the 1911 compacts do not have a bushing. They use a belled/flared barrel.
Like then both. But the HP 9MM is just a bit whimpy compared to the 11.25 MM (.45ACP).
Kind of hard to improve on perfection, even after 100 years.
Thom Braxton
SWCA #1474

 

[Rule 303]

I really like and carry 9mm's and .45s. Just depends on the time of the year and what I'm wearing.

I carried a Walther P38 while in Vietnam in addation to my M16 and cut down M79. To the best of my knowledge, none of the folks I killed with the P38 have come back to life.

Rule 303