1917 help

[schusler]

got this smith &wesson and i am looking for some history, info and value. can send more pics if needed.. let me know what I need to look for and what info you need to tell me the history of this pistol.

thanks for any help

 

[John Wyatt]

Looks like someone buffed the serial # and markings from the butt. If so, the gun is not legal to own.

 

[gjamison]

The serial number is in other places on the gun so it's ok to own.

It looks very used and some toke grinder to it. Look on the cylinder face as well as the barrel flat for the serial number, can date it from there. It does have the early inspector mark, grip are from a later gun.

 

[murphydog]

This is a model 1917 Army in .45 ACP. Somewhere around 170,000 were produced in 1917-1919 as substitutes for the 1911 during WW I. Half-moon clips were designed so empties could be easily extracted; you can also push out fired cases with a pencil or dowel.

It is true the serial number appears in several places aside from the bottom of the grip frame, but the latter is the official location. Depending on who you might ask officially, the answer may range from "it's ok, get the SN restamped" to "it's illegal to own, turn it in for destruction", as it is illegal to remove the SN from a gun. If this is a recent buy, personally I would ask for a refund; there are plenty of unaltered shooter 1917s out there. Hope this is helpful.

 

[bettis1]

With the GHS stamp on the upper left side and no grooves on the hammer the gun is early, probably between 20,000 and 30,000.

I agree with Alan about the serial number being removed from the butt. First, see if it has been re stamped on the grip frame. If not, it is very illegal. M1917's are too common to take a chance. Life is too short for the hassle. Take it back where it came from and wash your hands.

Bob

 

[DWalt]

As-is, that gun is a Jonah and has value only as parts. No dealer would touch it. Some advise re-stamping the SN on the butt, and you could probably get away with that if you choose to do so. But that's probably illegal.

 

[murphydog]

Just to add, the bottom of the grip frame was originally stamped "U.S. ARMY/MODEL 1917/No (SN)", and the bottom of the barrel "UNITED STATES PROPERTY". Many of these had these stampings removed to "conceal" the fact that they were USG owned, with the consequences as noted above.

 

[DCWilson]

Look on the underside of the barrel and see if there is a UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamp. Often the people who would erase the butt (which had the US Army Model 1917 stamp as well as the serial number) would also scrub the government property stamp from the barrel. Among those of the paranoid persuasion this was apparently thought to protect you from charges of criminal misappropriation in case you were ever questioned about the gun in your possession.

I join the others in encouraging you to unwind the trade, sale or gift -- whatever it was. If this was an inheritance, I will just observe that it is not legal as is and refrain from telling you what to do about it.

Apart from the legal issue, the gun is also a little rough. There are better 1917s out there, and if you want one you just need to look a little longer.

Sorry to reinforce the unwelcome news, but it is better to know this now than to find out under less advantageous circumstances.

Oops, while I was writing Alan posted the same thoughts.

 

[schusler]

Nothing on the bottom of barrel, found serial number on 3 places so far, and it is in the 25000s

 

[mkk41]

Unless ya know the Army Ser.No. is supposed to be on the butt , it's likely that it was sold with the "assembly numbers" you see as the ser.no.

I've come across dozens of 1917s (S&W and Colt) thru the years that had the butt markings ground off.
I've even heard this was done by a few distributors (Bannermans?) that bought them directly from the Govt.

I've seen several 'transactions' where the number in the yoke cut was used as the ser.no. , even thought the butt numbers were still there.

Even with modern commercial Smiths , I've heard where people legally carrying have had the 'numbers run' by police to come up with no record. They were using the yoke cut numbers as many grips cover the actual serial number on the butt.

 

[schusler]

can someone date it for me?
the serial is 259xx and there is the letter S.

thanks for you help, even though most seems to be bad news...

 

[DCWilson]

According to the web site with military manufacture dates, that would be a March 1918 revolver.

 

[murphydog]

If the 259xx is from the rear cylinder face and the barrel flat (above the ejector rod with the action closed) this is the SN.

 

[schusler]

If the 259xx is from the rear cylinder face and the barrel flat (above the ejector rod with the action closed) this is the SN.

yes that is where the number is from, there is also a assembly number located in under the grips and on the yolk

march 1918 huh.... thanks

 

[Muley Gil]

"I've come across dozens of 1917s (S&W and Colt) thru the years that had the butt markings ground off."

It doesn't matter on a Colt revolver, as the Colt serial number is located on the frame, where the crane (S&W calls it the yoke) closes.

 

[peyton]

Now we got the serial number thing figured out, now how does it shoot?

 

[schusler]

It shoots surprisingly well. I was impressed

 

[Muley Gil]

Once upon a time, the BATF allowed a gunsmith to restamp the SN if there were alterations done to a firearm. This was often done on the gripframe of a revolver.

I am unsure if this practice is still allowed.

 

[shawn mccarver]

The serial number is in other places on the gun so it's ok to own.

It looks very used and some toke grinder to it. Look on the cylinder face as well as the barrel flat for the serial number, can date it from there. It does have the early inspector mark, grip are from a later gun.

To be legal, the serial number MUST be on the frame. Removal is illegal. The official serial number of S&W revolvers is the one on the bottom of the grip frame. The serial numbers on the barrel and cylinder do not count, and in the case of more modern revolvers which have the number in the yoke, although part of the frame, the yoke number is there for ease of inspection when the weapon wears grips which obscure the real serial number on the butt, not because it is considered the official serial number. In fact, in cases of discrepancy between the yoke number and the grip frame/butt number, the butt number is the official number.

There may be provisions allowing re-stamping of the serial number, but that has obviously not been done in this case, unless the OP photo-shopped out the entire number when he posted the pictures.

In any event, I believe the proper course of action if the serial number has not been lawfully re-stamped in a location officially approved by ATF supported by paperwork from ATF, is: (1) get a refund and return the revolver to the seller; (2) talk to a lawyer specializing in this area of law and follow his instructions; and (3) do NOT call ATF for legal advice until you are confident that: (a) you are not guilty of a crime and (b) you are sure they will not instruct you to turn in the weapon for destruction.

In all cases, follow the law, tell the truth if you talk (you do not have to talk - right to remain silent and all) and be pretty sure you know the answer and the procedure before you set out to correct the lack of a serial number.

 

[Hondo44]

Did you look under the stocks to see if the serial number is stamped on either side of the grip frame?