1917 military over-run or Civlian ?

[fkienast]

Just to add to the collective knowledge. I own 55547 and it is NOT a Brazilian.



Just to make sure we all understand. The numbers in the yoke cut, the yoke and the back side of the side plate all match? If so what is that number?

Then turning the gun upside down, what is the number on the butt of the gun?

The serial number, 55639, is stamped on butt grip, barrel, yoke, and frame.


Those numbers are 18408. It is marked three times with that number, once on the frame, yoke and inside the side plate.

The pistol has Eagle head proofs, an S24 on cylinder, and an S34 on the barrel, they're tiny and hard to read.

 

[Hondo44]

I think that clinches it then!

 

[fkienast]

My big question is since it has no US government markings other than inspection stamps, where did this revolver sit from 1918 till 1946, when it was sold to Brazil?

 

[Hondo44]

The frame was in Smith inventory. They're made in large batches then assembled as the need arises.

Yours was likely in a batch of about 7300 frames made in 1918 under the government contract for WW I, but never completed before the end of the war. They were delivered to the government and bought back at a later date as surplus.

 

[Jack Flash]

I'm guessing it would be impossible to say how many crates, barrels, warehouses, depots the frame & parts traversed before being made into a working revolver ...

 

[iskra]

A Usual Suspect

Living dangerously here. Replying without having read all the above posts. Yet little time today! Below a pix of my commercial post WWII .Model 1917 Sn 2099xx (no "S" prefix). Just for illustration.
And the usual...
Just my take

 

[JSR III]

Things to note on iskra's gun. Made in USA roll mark, large S&W logo on side plate and non mushroom extractor rod knob and checked stocks.

These are not found on the non commercial models.

 

[Hondo44]

Living dangerously here. Replying without having read all the above posts. Yet little time today! Below a pix of my commercial post WWII .Model 1917 Sn 2099xx (no "S" prefix). Just for illustration.
And the usual...
Just my take

That's a beauty and one of the easiest Commercial models to identify.

It's clearly one of the few more (not including the 1946 Brazilians) 1917 Commercial Army Models produced, (991 is the usual quantity quoted), most in the 1917 serial range # S209972 to # S210782 (811 #s), some without the S prefix, with post ~1933 and #185000 hammer block safety, issued post WW II, c. 1946 - 1950, found with and w/o lanyard swivels, and are considered "Model 1917 Post War Transitional Models".

Replaced by the short action ".45 HE Model of 1950, Military" in 1951 beginning at #S85000 in the other existing N frame serial # range common to all pre war models except the 1917 Army, but with added S prefix in 1946.

 

[ejjeff]

I would just like to say Thank you to all the members of this forum for the education they so freely give.

Jeff

 

[model3sw]

I dug up this old thread I started back in 2012 to specify, more precisely what i mean.

I believe, although commercially sold, the first listed below was a US Over-run when production stopped at the end of WWI.

I have a model 1917 SN: 174xxx that is NOT a US marked model but has the following: proofed w-Eagle profile (side view of eagles head) w/ S-34. In frame Eagle & S2. No flaming bomb that I can see.

Then I have another 1917 SN: 133xxx that "is" a US marked model and has the near same markings as follows: Eagle profile (side view of eagle's head) over S2 on barrel & frame inside crane area. Flaming Bomb on left rear upper. United States Property barrel.

And, another 1917 US Army SN: 68xxx SN noted as follows: Light Eagle over S4 frame, Flaming bomb left rear upper frame United States Property barrel.

Same eagle, same S2 marks on SN 133xxx but no US Army markings, just the partial with Eagle and Sx number.

One very near like 133xxx sold at Reading Auction in December 2016 for $2500.00. It was approximately a 90% or better gun. It only had a flaming bomb inside the frame but no other, Ne eagle no Sx markings.

Comments ?

 

[umwminer]

This one has eagle head/s codes only

S2 , S24 , S34 .
No "US PROPERTY" or "US Army Model of 1917 ".
No GHS or Flaming Bomb.
Small logo on left side of frame .
SN 172860

 

[Muley Gil]

Looks like a post WW I, pre mid 1922 1917. The stamping "MADE IN USA" appeared on the right side of the frame in mid 1922.

 

[policerevolvercollector]

So where does serial number 177843 fall into this chronology? It has no military proofs or army markings. Is it a true "Commercial"?

 

[Hondo44]

That's a commercial model. I'm surprised it doesn't have a lanyard swivel. However, the butt strap has had some work on it, it's not flat any longer except where the serial # is.

I'll bet the lanyard swivel hole has been filled. A quick check under the stocks would confirm if the retaining cross pin hole is there and or if some filler welding is evident.

 

[umwminer]

The lanyard hole has been fllled in

The cross pin is in place under the stocks

 

[Muley Gil]

So where does serial number 177843 fall into this chronology? It has no military proofs or army markings. Is it a true "Commercial"?

Yes, it is a commercial model that was built after mid 1922. It has the small S&W stamp on the left side. And it has the "MADE IN USA" on the right side, which appeared after mid 1922.

 

[1-1917]

Sal, good questions.

I tend to follow the concept of original intent: the 1917 was designed as a military model and every specimen should be considered military unless it meets the narrowest definition of a commercial variety. For me, that means there should be no military markings of any sort, and there should be a S&W logo on the left side of the frame (or on the sideplate for the very few units made after the late 1930s). Lanyard loops may or may not be present.

If the 1917 collecting community sees fit to draw additional distinctions, I am more than willing to learn from and be guided by them.

At least the cylinder of mine (#173967) has a Springfield inspector stamp on it. The proof to me is in the letter from S&W. It was sent to Zion's Merchantile, not the Army. Has all the normal commercial items but still has some military marking too.