pakettle
Member
My m/p compact 3.6 shoots P.0.A with either 115 or 124 blazer brass, its a tact driver!
2.0 compact shooting low
- Thread starter hogblue
- Start date
With your extensive experience as a federal firearms instructor, what would your advice be to one of your students who came to you with this problem?
Well. I would fire it using the sights as I normally do for
POA/POI. If the group is off, sights are adjusted accordingly. If they are on target it's the shooter and i observe their technique and adjust the shooters form to get him/her on target.
Contacted Smith today. Was advised it's not an uncommon situation. They have the appropriate shorter front sight to make the corrections.
It's going in for a new blade and a checkup next week.
Each weapon is a different animal...........
The sights might be good to go but , maybe the grips don't fit your hand correctly, which could toss the rounds high or low or where ever.
I almost always have to tinker with a new weapon to make it fit me.
Only had one out of the box fit me perfect and it was a M19-5 .357 Magnum.
+1 on giving different ammo and bullet weights a go.
You might stumble into to something that works.
Have fun.
The sights might be good to go but , maybe the grips don't fit your hand correctly, which could toss the rounds high or low or where ever.
I almost always have to tinker with a new weapon to make it fit me.
Only had one out of the box fit me perfect and it was a M19-5 .357 Magnum.
+1 on giving different ammo and bullet weights a go.
You might stumble into to something that works.
Have fun.
Me too. But that will shoot low with combat sights. The bullet goes where the front dot points.
I'm not "in the know" with the combat thinking today, so I don't understand why S&W went with the combat sight picture when Glock didnt. I'm sure there is a reason.
ultratec00
Member
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scooter123
Member
You wont see much difference in POI between 115 and 124 grain 9mm ammunition, been there done that. However you will see a real change when going from 115 and 147 grain ammunition.
I carry a Ruger LC9S Pro and the sights are regulated for 147 grain ammunition and using that it shoots dead on to the white dot in the front sight. BTW, with 115 grain ammo I have to arrange the 3 dots for the sights into an equilateral triangle with the front sight on top. I will also note than my 9mm 1911 CMD is not nearly as sensitive to bullet weight and that does make sense if you think about Bore Transit Recoil. With a lighter and smaller handgun there is always going to be more muzzle flip when shooting than with a larger heavier handgun. So I am not at all surprised that you don't see much difference with the shift in the POI with different bullet weights in 9mm. At a guess I see about 3 times as much shift with my LC9S than with my 1911.
Final note. These are Defensive Pistols and way too many folks get way to worked up about group size and minor differences in the POI. You case is a good illustration of this. You are concerned about a 6 inch deviance in POI at 45 FEET. Defensive shootings in civilian life just don't happen at a range this long, almost all take place at 15 feet or less. Take that into consideration and your deviation with 115 grain ammo is only 2 inches.
I carry a Ruger LC9S Pro and the sights are regulated for 147 grain ammunition and using that it shoots dead on to the white dot in the front sight. BTW, with 115 grain ammo I have to arrange the 3 dots for the sights into an equilateral triangle with the front sight on top. I will also note than my 9mm 1911 CMD is not nearly as sensitive to bullet weight and that does make sense if you think about Bore Transit Recoil. With a lighter and smaller handgun there is always going to be more muzzle flip when shooting than with a larger heavier handgun. So I am not at all surprised that you don't see much difference with the shift in the POI with different bullet weights in 9mm. At a guess I see about 3 times as much shift with my LC9S than with my 1911.
Final note. These are Defensive Pistols and way too many folks get way to worked up about group size and minor differences in the POI. You case is a good illustration of this. You are concerned about a 6 inch deviance in POI at 45 FEET. Defensive shootings in civilian life just don't happen at a range this long, almost all take place at 15 feet or less. Take that into consideration and your deviation with 115 grain ammo is only 2 inches.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Did you shoot it from a rest or just standing?
Because they didn't. There is no such thing as a "combat" sight picture. It's pure internet myth.
First of all, you can't get that sight picture with an M&P. That cartoon isn't accurate. A real sight picture looks like this:
Notice how small the front dot is compared to the rear. So, the sight picture in the cartoon is wrong and misleading. On the M&P the dots only serve to help find the sights quickly. Line up the tops of the sights.
Completely wrong.
ultratec00
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Times and scenarios have changed dramatically in the past few years. I don't think anyone is expecting target accuracy from a CCW but it needs to get the job done.
To each their own. Every firearm I carry will do the job up close or further should the scenario dictate such. Getting the job done means it will hit where I am aiming off hand or from a supported position.
To each their own. Every firearm I carry will do the job up close or further should the scenario dictate such. Getting the job done means it will hit where I am aiming off hand or from a supported position.
Yes, in the grand scheme of things, a couple inches high or low isn't a big deal, the human torso is a fairly large target.
But it becomes annoying in practice (and you should be practicing a lot) when you are shooting at a small gong or other such target, and you constantly hit several inches low or high, and you shouldn't have to have to remember to hold several inches high, or low, in order to hit it.
Shooting is more fun when you don't have to always compensate because your bullet doesn't hit where your sights are pointing.
Just get a different height front sight from Dawson, switch to a different bullet weight like the 147 grain, do what you have to do to get impact where you want it, and be done with it.
Rastoff
US Veteran
I'll accept that you don't agree with me, but without any kind of explanation we can't know why. If you don't explain why, like I did, then you're just spouting words with no meaning.
So, I can only surmise that you mean we should be lining up the dots. If that's the case, tell us how? Since the dots appear as different sizes, how should we line them up? The tops of the dots? The middle of the dots? Because you can't line up dots that are different sizes evenly.
The picture you posted is a drawing. The picture I posted is of my gun taken from the point of view of the shooter. Take a picture of your gun and show us how you line up the dots.
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scooter123
Member
Now another thought that will likely stir up a bit of a fuss with some. That is the difference between a Top of Sight hold and a Combat sight picture. Folks the difference between these two sight pictures is the distance between the center of the dot and the top of the sights, on my SR1911 that is 0.05 inch.
I expect that will get a few folks fuming. Before you reply that I am out of my mind I suggest that you get out a pad of paper and actually work out the two sight lines. What you will see is two sight lines that are parallel and offset by the distance between the top of the sights and the dots that fall below the top line.
As a result arguing about whether to use a Top Line sight picture or a Combat sight picture is actually a needless waste of time. Use whichever sight picture is most instinctive for you. I use a Combat hold simply because with a 3 dot sight that is what is easiest for me.
Final note concerns a "6 O'clock" hold where you aim at the bottom of the Bullseye dot. IMO it's a stupid sight picture to use with a handgun. Because this is a sight picture that was designed to work well for precision handgun shooting using a series of targets with bullseyes sized for specific distances. That does NOT bear any resemblance to real world shooting and its a sight picture that tends to be slower to use.
I expect that will get a few folks fuming. Before you reply that I am out of my mind I suggest that you get out a pad of paper and actually work out the two sight lines. What you will see is two sight lines that are parallel and offset by the distance between the top of the sights and the dots that fall below the top line.
As a result arguing about whether to use a Top Line sight picture or a Combat sight picture is actually a needless waste of time. Use whichever sight picture is most instinctive for you. I use a Combat hold simply because with a 3 dot sight that is what is easiest for me.
Final note concerns a "6 O'clock" hold where you aim at the bottom of the Bullseye dot. IMO it's a stupid sight picture to use with a handgun. Because this is a sight picture that was designed to work well for precision handgun shooting using a series of targets with bullseyes sized for specific distances. That does NOT bear any resemblance to real world shooting and its a sight picture that tends to be slower to use.
Well here's the deal. I always align my sights on any handgun pistol or revolver front sight even with the ears of the rear sight, equal air gap between the notch of the rear sight.
Top of the front sight is placed on the POA and is the POI I expect to achieve. Dots make no difference to me they are only referencing point
Attached is the B27 I recently qualified on for my HR218 COF was the standard Missouri off duty officer course. I was using a 4" 686 with federal 130 fmc 38's
Strong hand, weak hand and two hand are utilized from 3 yds to fifteen yds 50 round course.
I'm pretty sure the sights need attention on the M&P.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Top of the front sight is placed on the POA and is the POI I expect to achieve. Dots make no difference to me they are only referencing point
Attached is the B27 I recently qualified on for my HR218 COF was the standard Missouri off duty officer course. I was using a 4" 686 with federal 130 fmc 38's
Strong hand, weak hand and two hand are utilized from 3 yds to fifteen yds 50 round course.
I'm pretty sure the sights need attention on the M&P.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rastoff
US Veteran
hogblue,
No one is questioning your ability with a handgun. At least I'm not. You are clearly a good shot.
Even so, no two handguns are the same. Just because you can shoot one well doesn't mean you can shoot all of them well. The way the triggers work will definitely affect the way you shoot the gun.
In the case of the M&P, they tend to have a LOT of over-travel. This excessive over-travel will cause the sight picture to bobble a bit as you shoot. That leads to shots not hitting the intended spot.
I'm a pretty fair shot myself. You can see it in my challenge: Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet I'd love to see you join us in that fun.
In my own shooting journey, I struggled with an H&K USP Compact. I can shoot most of my pistols pretty well, but that one just didn't work for me. It wasn't the sights, I just had trouble with it. If I used a rest to test it, it was right on.
That's why I ask if you've used a rest? Without removing the human factor, we don't know if it's the gun or not. In fact, your particular issue could be the gun. It has happened before. That just can't be determined until it's shot from a rest.
If you send it to S&W, nothing will happen. They will have the gun for a month or more. The may or may not replace the barrel. Then it will come back to you with the claim, "Gun operating within spec."
As an instructor I'm sure you know that shooting low/left is the most common error for right hand shooters. That's why this thread is going the way it is, no other reason. We have this discussion here a lot. I believe that if S&W were to reduce the over-travel, we'd see it a lot less. But that's just my opinion.
No one is questioning your ability with a handgun. At least I'm not. You are clearly a good shot.
Even so, no two handguns are the same. Just because you can shoot one well doesn't mean you can shoot all of them well. The way the triggers work will definitely affect the way you shoot the gun.
In the case of the M&P, they tend to have a LOT of over-travel. This excessive over-travel will cause the sight picture to bobble a bit as you shoot. That leads to shots not hitting the intended spot.
I'm a pretty fair shot myself. You can see it in my challenge: Rastoff's Challenge- Dropping the Gauntlet I'd love to see you join us in that fun.
In my own shooting journey, I struggled with an H&K USP Compact. I can shoot most of my pistols pretty well, but that one just didn't work for me. It wasn't the sights, I just had trouble with it. If I used a rest to test it, it was right on.
That's why I ask if you've used a rest? Without removing the human factor, we don't know if it's the gun or not. In fact, your particular issue could be the gun. It has happened before. That just can't be determined until it's shot from a rest.
If you send it to S&W, nothing will happen. They will have the gun for a month or more. The may or may not replace the barrel. Then it will come back to you with the claim, "Gun operating within spec."
As an instructor I'm sure you know that shooting low/left is the most common error for right hand shooters. That's why this thread is going the way it is, no other reason. We have this discussion here a lot. I believe that if S&W were to reduce the over-travel, we'd see it a lot less. But that's just my opinion.
This is an oft expressed frustration, yet I have never seen anyone post the simple solution:
Lower your target 6".
No I didn't use a rest. In order to get a true reading a ransom rest would be the only way to go. I do not have one. However I did concentrate on getting the surprise hammer fall which I achieved and still had to use a 12:00 hold to get POI on the plates at 15 yds. Using dead center hold results in strikes on the deflection bar below the plates 6 to 8 inches low.
Put the front dot where you want the bullet to go. Its that simple.
My hair is gray. I've put zillions of rounds down range and bla bla zzzzzzzzzz.... But it took me about 15 minutes to figure out the M&P sights. I suppose I could swap out the front blade, but it isn't that big a deal for me. I can put down the Glock, pick up the M&P, and put the bullets where I want them out to about 75 yds. Beyond that range the front dot & blade obstructs my view too much.
This "my gun shoots low" subject is popular on the M&P forum.
