CTI1USNRET
Member
Flat point FMJ is the only way to go. It's your only chance of penetrating all the way to the spinal cord for an instant stop.
2 Questions RE .380 Ammuntion
- Thread starter Smoke
- Start date
m444ss
Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2013
- Messages
- 6
- Reaction score
- 3
Don't mess with ball ammo except for practice. The Hornady Critical Defense works just fine, and feeds without fail in my wife's LCP. It's also safer and more effective than ball ammo. (By safer, I mean it's going to penetrate well and transfer energy to an attacker rather than simply passing thru, therefore, quicker threat mitigation than ball ammo; also will penetrate thru clothing, etc, but not as likely as ball ammo to keep going thru attacker and wall into someone in the next room.)
m444ss
Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2013
- Messages
- 6
- Reaction score
- 3
I disagree. Hornady Critical Defense has been conclusively shown to penetrate various barriers well. This type of defense ammo will feed well in your LCP and will penetrate into the attacker thru clothing, etc, without the higher risk of passing thru with minimal energy transfer that you get with FMJs (flat point or otherwise).
m444ss
Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2013
- Messages
- 6
- Reaction score
- 3
Additionally, the FMJ transfers relatively little energy as it over-penetrates (i.e., passes right thru); therefore, proper defense ammo should take less rounds to stop the threat, which is better for everyone involved including bystanders. Ball ammo is great for practice 'cause it's cheap. If you actually have to shoot someone (and survive long enough for your trial), you'd better be using something like Hornady Critical Defense.
unless you have been hit by several rounds of .380 and lived to tell about it, one opinion is about as good as another. Best i can say is get reliable ammo and practice hitting the target. There is no one right answer for all situations. If your aim is bad or your courage weak, carrying a 50mm Gatling gun may not save you
Last edited:
CTI1USNRET
Member
In all the gel tests I've seen, NO ONE tries to simulate the bone, muscle, skin, and clothing on the REAR of the target. They just test for penetration, through gel with denim on the front of the target, to ensure the bullet reaches the heart and lungs (which are situated against the back).
VERY often, 9mm FMJ bullets are found just under the skin or in the clothes on the opposite side.
I am not worried about overpenetration with a FMJ that hits center of mass. It's very rare.
VERY often, 9mm FMJ bullets are found just under the skin or in the clothes on the opposite side.
I am not worried about overpenetration with a FMJ that hits center of mass. It's very rare.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2012
- Messages
- 1
- Reaction score
- 0
Smoke: My wife's first choice was a LCP with a laser after watching me use mine which I carry as a BUG or when I can't wear something around my waist. After shooting it for a while it was apparent that her arthritic hands couldn't handle the magazines and failure to fire drills - just not strong enough, etc. She now carries the LCR in 38 sp.+p and handles the recoil fine with the good rubber grips. I load down the practice rounds so it is more comfortable for her to shoot 30 rounds or so.
As far as carry ammo, I've pretty much switched to the Hornady Critical Duty for my larger 4" barrel guns and Defense for the compacts. The Duty is designed to pass the FBI tests and it uses the plastic tip to prevent plugging when going thru clothing, etc. The Defense is loaded hotter and lighter for the shorter barrels, has the plastic tip to prevent plugging and expands faster to reduce over penetration. I won't carry FMJ's even in my 380 (or 9mm Kurtz/Short). I prefer the .40 myself or the 357 LCR.
As far as carry ammo, I've pretty much switched to the Hornady Critical Duty for my larger 4" barrel guns and Defense for the compacts. The Duty is designed to pass the FBI tests and it uses the plastic tip to prevent plugging when going thru clothing, etc. The Defense is loaded hotter and lighter for the shorter barrels, has the plastic tip to prevent plugging and expands faster to reduce over penetration. I won't carry FMJ's even in my 380 (or 9mm Kurtz/Short). I prefer the .40 myself or the 357 LCR.
frontseat767
Member
In depth article w/ tests on various .380 FMJ & HP penetration, thru denin etc.
Final Results of the .380 ACP Ammo Quest | Shooting The Bull
Final Results of the .380 ACP Ammo Quest | Shooting The Bull
KnightTime
Member
.380 "effective" ?
Is the .380 an "effective" round?
Police: Texting argument in movie theater sparks fatal shooting - CNN.com
This tragedy was inflicted by a single .380 bullet.
Is the .380 an "effective" round?
Police: Texting argument in movie theater sparks fatal shooting - CNN.com
This tragedy was inflicted by a single .380 bullet.
fireshot
Member
If the first round is enough to stop the threat, additional follow-up rounds could complete the job of putting the threat down if it is necessary.
In my opinion the most important first step is to stop the threat, after that your odds of surviving increase exponentially with each successive round fired. Her survival is the ultimate goal whether the BG survives or not.
venomballistics
Member
Just wait until the BG drops an F-Bomb and shoot him in the mouth!
Hmmm .. I imagine that would be a very large target too ... if ya timed it just right
Tried reading all the "answers" but fell asleep. I have a thought. I live in West Va and carry a Ruger LCP and as far as I understand the state laws I cannot carry the gun legally with ball ammo. The state requires any concealed carry to be loaded with personal defense hollow points to prevent collateral injury. Remember ball ammo was designed to go "thru" the war fighter and not kill but to injure. It takes four people to take care of a wounded soldier and none to care for a dead one. That is why most states will not allow ball ammo to be used for hunting. Check you states laws is my two cents.
It may be just a question of semantics but if the first round stops the threat additional rounds wouldn't be needed and "Putting the threat down" could very likely be seen as murder.
Chillock
Member
My wife carries a S&W/PPK 380. Because of hand and wrist issues, she felt this was the best for her. She loves, it carries it, she shoots it, she's comfortable with it. Pow R Ball ammo is what she uses for defense rounds.
I'm not going to jump into the debate as to which is the best ammo to use, what my wife uses, works for her. Also, I"m not going to jump into the debate as to whether or not 380 is a good caliber for defense. And here's why....
When I was a kid, my dad packed a very popular (famous if you will) small handgun he got overseas (it was not available in the US at the time). A man came crashing through our front door. Dad responded with two shoots, I'm guessing (memory here) 30 feet to target, stopped the man, saved our family. Caliber: 380. Hollow points (filled with wax as he was taught from a friend at work). To this day, Dad still has the handgun. To this day he still fills the hollow points with wax. Anyway, it worked, it did the job.
I'm not going to jump into the debate as to which is the best ammo to use, what my wife uses, works for her. Also, I"m not going to jump into the debate as to whether or not 380 is a good caliber for defense. And here's why....
When I was a kid, my dad packed a very popular (famous if you will) small handgun he got overseas (it was not available in the US at the time). A man came crashing through our front door. Dad responded with two shoots, I'm guessing (memory here) 30 feet to target, stopped the man, saved our family. Caliber: 380. Hollow points (filled with wax as he was taught from a friend at work). To this day, Dad still has the handgun. To this day he still fills the hollow points with wax. Anyway, it worked, it did the job.
cmort666
Member
I don't even use ball for that. It's not cheaper than my lead bullet handloads, especially these days.
The ONLY thing I use ball for in a handgun is EIC matches with an M1911.
Best .380 ammo
My Bodyguard loves Hornady CD (designed specifically for pocket guns) and for practice Fiocchi 95 grain FMJ. Never had a FTF in either and have never tried another brand. (I also use Hornady CD in my Ruger LCR .38 special)
My Bodyguard loves Hornady CD (designed specifically for pocket guns) and for practice Fiocchi 95 grain FMJ. Never had a FTF in either and have never tried another brand. (I also use Hornady CD in my Ruger LCR .38 special)
Last edited:
Model 15-4ever
Member
Selecting carry ammo (based on 20+ years as LE firearms instructor):
1. Ammo has to function reliably in the pistol, as tested by the CCW holder. It has to be tested in the weapon by the shooter. Eg. Ball usually works reliably, but not always… I had one brand that was not reliable in a particular gun. Every specimen is different, every shooter different. You must test it.
2. Ammo has to be shootable by the CCW holder in the weapon. Accuracy take precedence over some marginal factor of "power". Eg. I like the Speer 90 grain GDHP, but in the LCP and P3AT the recoil is uncomfortable and accuracy suffers. Much better in the SIG P238 and S&W BG380.
3. JHP ammo in .380 is designed to expand at the velocities of small pistols and will create somewhat more damage than FMJ ammo. However, JHP will penetrate less than FMJ… how much less depends on the particular design. For close-range frontal attacker (usual scenario), JHP .380 from the major manufacturers penetrates enough on someone wearing light clothing: 9-13" generally. That is sufficient for most close-in self-defense that you would use a .380 pistol for (as opposed to LE work where you are actively pursuing dangerous armed and aggressive criminals). However, put some heavy winter clothing on the attacker and that JHP penetration could become <9", which is not a good thing.
4. In .380 only, I carry JHP spring-fall, and FMJ in the winter. I live in the Northeast. If I lived in Miami Beach, I'd use JHP all the time. In the LCP/P3AT, I use standard Federal 90 grain JHP: it is accurate, recoil is moderate, expands to some degree, completely reliable, and not priced like gold. In P238/BG380, I use Speer 90 grain GDHP… it's accurate and reliable but has more recoil than the other rounds, also expands more. There are other effective JHP out there as well; my choices are not exclusive. For FMJ ammo I use 95 grain Federal American Eagle. The Winchester flat points seem like a good idea but in gel testing they don't have any different effect than regular FMJ, and would not be as reliable as round nose FMJ.
5. Overpenetration as a hazard is largely a myth. The majority of rounds fired in shooting situations completely miss the intended target, and go downrange at full velocity. Are you worried about those rounds? If not, do you always shoot with 100% accuracy? If you are worried about a round that expends most of its energy and velocity in a human body prior to exiting, and then with very slight probability strikes someone directly behind the target, perhaps you shouldn't be shooting at all in the particular situation. However, if your round fails to penetrate adequately, and no vital organs or blood vessels are struck, your attacker will not be incapacitated, and you will more likely be killed or severely injured as a result. I'd rather have enough penetration, and be aware of what is behind my target.
6. IMHO, don't waste your time and money on things such as Buffalo Bore. You are paying an exorbitant premium for ammo which for the most part is loaded to a non-standard and/or potentially unsafe level, and which is not been shown to be any more effective than standard ammo… marketing claims to the contrary. They have some good loads not otherwise available, but not better enough to justify the price. On top of which, shooting enough of the Buffalo Bore to ensure than it is reliable and you are accurate with it, is damaging to both your weapon and your wallet. Eg. Difficult to find a better .44 Special load for the Charter Bulldog than Federal 200 grain LSWCHP.
1. Ammo has to function reliably in the pistol, as tested by the CCW holder. It has to be tested in the weapon by the shooter. Eg. Ball usually works reliably, but not always… I had one brand that was not reliable in a particular gun. Every specimen is different, every shooter different. You must test it.
2. Ammo has to be shootable by the CCW holder in the weapon. Accuracy take precedence over some marginal factor of "power". Eg. I like the Speer 90 grain GDHP, but in the LCP and P3AT the recoil is uncomfortable and accuracy suffers. Much better in the SIG P238 and S&W BG380.
3. JHP ammo in .380 is designed to expand at the velocities of small pistols and will create somewhat more damage than FMJ ammo. However, JHP will penetrate less than FMJ… how much less depends on the particular design. For close-range frontal attacker (usual scenario), JHP .380 from the major manufacturers penetrates enough on someone wearing light clothing: 9-13" generally. That is sufficient for most close-in self-defense that you would use a .380 pistol for (as opposed to LE work where you are actively pursuing dangerous armed and aggressive criminals). However, put some heavy winter clothing on the attacker and that JHP penetration could become <9", which is not a good thing.
4. In .380 only, I carry JHP spring-fall, and FMJ in the winter. I live in the Northeast. If I lived in Miami Beach, I'd use JHP all the time. In the LCP/P3AT, I use standard Federal 90 grain JHP: it is accurate, recoil is moderate, expands to some degree, completely reliable, and not priced like gold. In P238/BG380, I use Speer 90 grain GDHP… it's accurate and reliable but has more recoil than the other rounds, also expands more. There are other effective JHP out there as well; my choices are not exclusive. For FMJ ammo I use 95 grain Federal American Eagle. The Winchester flat points seem like a good idea but in gel testing they don't have any different effect than regular FMJ, and would not be as reliable as round nose FMJ.
5. Overpenetration as a hazard is largely a myth. The majority of rounds fired in shooting situations completely miss the intended target, and go downrange at full velocity. Are you worried about those rounds? If not, do you always shoot with 100% accuracy? If you are worried about a round that expends most of its energy and velocity in a human body prior to exiting, and then with very slight probability strikes someone directly behind the target, perhaps you shouldn't be shooting at all in the particular situation. However, if your round fails to penetrate adequately, and no vital organs or blood vessels are struck, your attacker will not be incapacitated, and you will more likely be killed or severely injured as a result. I'd rather have enough penetration, and be aware of what is behind my target.
6. IMHO, don't waste your time and money on things such as Buffalo Bore. You are paying an exorbitant premium for ammo which for the most part is loaded to a non-standard and/or potentially unsafe level, and which is not been shown to be any more effective than standard ammo… marketing claims to the contrary. They have some good loads not otherwise available, but not better enough to justify the price. On top of which, shooting enough of the Buffalo Bore to ensure than it is reliable and you are accurate with it, is damaging to both your weapon and your wallet. Eg. Difficult to find a better .44 Special load for the Charter Bulldog than Federal 200 grain LSWCHP.
Last edited:
SgtLumpy
Member
Paramedic talking to GSW victim...
"Don't worry about those two bullet wounds in your chest. They were 380s. And they weren't Hornady Critical Defense, they were Federal Hydrashocks. Their hollow cavity probably filled with fabric as they penetrated your clothing and then lost their effectiveness as a mushrooming bullet. So you only have .380 inch diameter holes in your chest. And the bullet probably slithered around any hard objects, like your sternum or ribs, you know the bones that protect your heart, lungs and aorta from trauma. And all that information is backed up by FBI test firings into jello, data from real shootings and several YouTube videos. You're gonna be fine. Hold direct pressure right HERE. Do you know your blood type?"
Sgt Lumpy
"Don't worry about those two bullet wounds in your chest. They were 380s. And they weren't Hornady Critical Defense, they were Federal Hydrashocks. Their hollow cavity probably filled with fabric as they penetrated your clothing and then lost their effectiveness as a mushrooming bullet. So you only have .380 inch diameter holes in your chest. And the bullet probably slithered around any hard objects, like your sternum or ribs, you know the bones that protect your heart, lungs and aorta from trauma. And all that information is backed up by FBI test firings into jello, data from real shootings and several YouTube videos. You're gonna be fine. Hold direct pressure right HERE. Do you know your blood type?"
Sgt Lumpy
Similar threads
