2 S&Ws and 2 Colts

[Malysh]

Centennial Airweight SN 3651, lettered as shipped early 1954

M&P 2" bbl. round butt, SN C 70809, 1948

Colt Mod 01918 Custom Shop

Colt 1955 Agent with factory hammer shroud, SN 43481. 1955 was the first year of production for the Agent. I estimate Colt made 1,000 or less the first year. So far, this is the only one we've seen unearthed on the Colt Forum. It's condition makes it a carry gun, and it gets carried a lot.

 

[Art Doc]

Unlikely C70,xxx shipped in 1948. I have C56,xxx and C58,xxx that shipped July and May of 1949 respectively. Yes, the earlier number shipped 2 months later.

 

[Malysh]

I didn't mention the shipping date because the gun isn't lettered. Jinks' "The History of S&W" has a pretty complete table of K frame manufacturing dates by year (unlike the J frame serial number ranges), and C 70,809 was made that year. It could have shipped at any time and out of sequential order, as you already know.

All the firearms manufacturers shipped guns in no particular serial number order.

The stocks are wrong, too! . I have an era-correct set of diamond center magnas for it that I use when I'm carrying this gun. I just like the old round tops on the gun for having it around the house. As a matter of fact, I am going to gently clean the surface grime off of the round tops soon, gently using a tooth brush, warm water, and some Dawn diswashing liquid. It will not hurt the stocks or the varnish or lacquer that they coated them with. They will not be soaked in this solution, only some gentle brushing, dabbing off the liquified grime and dabbing the used Dawn off with a small amount of clean warm water with paper towels, and then blotted with paper towels. I still let them dry all day before remounting. I generally don't clean the backs of the stocks unless there happens to be a huge amount of grease on them. The backs never get a surface coating and I avoid cleaning the backs whenever I can.

I would guess that by 1946 or surely by 1947, none of these 2" M&Ps were still being shipped with round top stocks.

 

[DWalt]

Late 1949 would be approximately correct for C70809. And yes, the non-Magna round-top grips from the 1930s style are seen on round-butt M&P snubbies that late, and even later, and correctly numbered to the gun. Are yours numbered?

 

[Malysh]

Late 1949 would be approximately correct for C70809. And yes, the non-Magna round-top grips from the 1930s style are seen on round-butt M&P snubbies that late, and even later, and correctly numbered to the gun. Are yours numbered?

For 1948 frame manufacturing date, I'm only going by Jinks' chart in the K Frame Revolvers chapter as found on page 190. For all I know some of that info may have changed over the years. Since the internet age the data has multiplied greatly. I confess I have always been more interested in the dates a frame or gun was assembled than the dates and where the guns shipped; with a few exceptions for rare guns where the factory letter is paramount.

Jinks' chart shows K Frames serial number stamped frames for 1948 starting at 18,732 and ending 73,121 All C prefix of course.

No, those stocks are not numbered to the gun. I forget what the numbers are.
I'm surprised more than a handful of M&P round butts were shipped with round top stocks as late as that. I've seen a few posted here. I would guess the majority of the K frame round butts of this era were coming out of the factory with the magnas.

Heck, I like both styles!!!

 

[Art Doc]

The problem with focusing on a manufacturing date rather than a shipping date is that you are all alone on that one. Not even S&W knows when a particular gun was assembled as no records were kept on manufacturing, only when it shipped.

You seem determined to call your gun a 1948 model despite testimony to the contrary. Fine by me. You can call it whatever you wish.

 

[Texas Star]

The Agent has the longer extractor rod dating to 1958, as I recall. Someone may have replaced a shorter rod.

You have some nice guns, regardless of when they shipped.

 

[Malysh]

The problem with focusing on a manufacturing date rather than a shipping date is that you are all alone on that one. Not even S&W knows when a particular gun was assembled as no records were kept on manufacturing, only when it shipped.

You seem determined to call your gun a 1948 model despite testimony to the contrary. Fine by me. You can call it whatever you wish.

Well, tmichael also put it at 1948ish. He sold it to me.
I'd like to know how the more expert collectors reconcile the table in Jinks' book with the dates they are using of 1949? I am not being facecious here. I respect DWalt but what I am to think when Jinks lists a frame with that serial number dated 1948? I am here to learn and enjoy and although well versed I am certainly no expert. Have the Jinks tables been refuted? I want to know if they have, or perhaps nobody ever goes by them?

As far as being alone on this, you're right and it doesn't bother me. One small reason I like Colts is that they kept dates of manufacture. These are a lot more interesting to me than the shipping dates. Especially since both companies consistantly shipped guns out of serial number sequence. Just like with S&W, with a Colt letter you get the shipping date. If you request the manufacturing date, you get both dates.
I really don't care that a J or K frame I own was shipped to Schmedlapp Hardware in Anytown, Minnesota in 1950. Unless it's a police gun, owned by a famous historical person, or a registered magnum, the year the gun is made interests me more. Letters are always good for resale of a scarce or rare gun, though.

I see you haven't lost your confrontational and combative posting style either, Saxon.
I'd hoped you'd water it down a little. Your first post was fine and I appreciated you contributing the dates both of your 2" M&Ps shipped dates (thank you), but I noticed in the 2nd post you are becoming acerbic again. Frankly I have a hard time understanding that.
I have tried to keep it polite and respectful with you and I even gave you a Like for your post because we all know (yes, even me) that shipping dates are the big concept with collecting S&Ws. And it was good info getting the dates and numbers of your 2" M&Ps.

Do me a favor, please, and refrain from posting in my threads in the future. I'll do the same for you

 

[Malysh]

Upon more reflection, I am not going to clean the round top stocks. They are a bit dark, nothing too bad, but they are visually more compatible the way they are with the age and cosmetic condition of that old 2" M&P. They match up well together. It would look weird if the stocks look a lot fresher than the gun itself. The checkering is quite good on this set.

When I get a chance I will take some decent pictures and you folks can be the judges.

 

[DWalt]

My SN listing shows three documented C-series serial numbers which are somewhat lower than yours as shipping in late 1949, as well as two SNs which are a little greater. That would suggest yours also shipped in late 1949. It's certainly possible that the final assembly of your revolver could have occurred sometime in 1948, but the only way to determine an exact shipping date (which possibly could have been in 1948) is via a factory letter.

 

[Malysh]

Thanks Mr. Walt.

What's with that chart in Roy's book? I figure it means the frames were made and stamped between numbers so and so in that year.

I don't think that means the frames were necessarily assembled with barrels, lockworks, stocks, etc. in that year or used sequentially.

Like the ATFE, the serial number is what I'm usually interested in.

 

[Art Doc]

You can post wherever you like. I can't promise that that I'll remember to avoid your threads (and I am not sure why you're mad at me as I said you can do whatever you want with no problems from me). As for why I am thinking 1949 is a more likely date, as I said I have C56xxx and C58xxx and both have been lettered and they shipped in July and May of 1949. Yes, S&Ws sometimes don't ship in order (mine did but it was 2 months not a year) and the smart money is on a 1949 date for your M&P. But like I said, call it as you wish. Sorry if saying that upsets you.

 

[DWalt]

Part of the issue in tying serial numbers to shipping dates is that S&W evidently did not use FIFO practices in its finished product inventory. It's not unusual to see early SNs lettering as shipping later than some later SNs, sometimes by months or years. Plus I have noted that in some instances the manufacturing dates of ranges of serial numbers given in references cannot possibly be correct. For that matter, I have seen information provided in some factory letters which also could not be correct. Not often, but it happens.

 

[Malysh]

The gun is not one that I would letter. It's in nice condition, but it's a shooter and a carry gun on occasion. I have a 1954-1956 one that once I opened the shipping boxes, I couldn't bear to use it. I'm holding on to it, but it became an inadvertant safe queen.

The 1954 has a satin finish. This earlier one has a deeper glossier finish. I've noticed there was a change in the finishes in that era.

Mr. Walt and Saxon.
If you gents say it's from 1949, that's OK with me. Either way it's old enough to please me and a year or two isn't as important to me as that it's a 2" bbl, M&P round butt. I'm more partial to the round butt than the square butt when it's a snubby.
I appreciate the information.

Better to forget the tables in the K frame chapter. It's still a great book

 

[handejector]

For 1948 frame manufacturing date, I'm only going by Jinks' chart in the K Frame Revolvers chapter as found on page 190.!
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Jinks' chart shows K Frames serial number stamped frames for 1948 starting at 18,732 and ending 73,121 All C prefix of course.

I'd like to know how the more expert collectors reconcile the table in Jinks' book with the dates they are using of 1949?

What's with that chart in Roy's book? I figure it means the frames were made and stamped between numbers so and so in that year.

Using that chart is the cause of your misunderstanding.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this before me.

You are looking up an apple in the oranges chart!

The chart on page 190 of History has NOTHING to do with the M&Ps.
It is only for the K prefix guns- the Masterpieces. Target guns after WW II were numbered in a new series with the K prefix that BEGAN at K101 in 1946.

The C numbered guns start at C1 well into 1948.

 

[Malysh]

Aha! Thank you.

I know when the C series started but I got dumb when I looked at the chart.

That's why you get the big bucks!

 

[LOBO]

M&P 2" .38 special square butt, serial number C 158845, shipped in April of 1951. Hope this helps.

 

[handejector]

Also-
the round top grips on your M&P are post-war grips. Look at the round corners on the checkering.
They could be numbered to your gun.

I have no clue why S&W reverted to round top grips for two inch C numbered guns after magnas had become the norm for all guns.
Below is C 52056 with pre-war style checkering on the grips that are numbered to it.

 

[Malysh]

Also-
the round top grips on your M&P are post-war grips. Look at the round corners on the checkering.
They could be numbered to your gun.

I have no clue why S&W reverted to round top grips for two inch C numbered guns after magnas had become the norm for all guns.
Below is C 52056 with pre-war style checkering on the grips that are numbered to it.

Yup, that I know! I believe somebody else mentioned pre war round tops. It wasn't me.
But thanks! It's better to post it in case the twit who started the thread doesn't know
Those round tops didn't come with the gun, and their number isn't even close, but as I said, I don't remember what the SN on the stocks are. I bought them recently because even though I couldn't nail it down I thought it was possible that even a 1949 (or 1948 as I thought) M&P snubby could still have left the factory with round tops. Not for much later than that, in any case. By sheer numbers I imagine most of the 1949 ones left the factory with magnas. I have a diamond set of them for carry or if I get a little bored with the round tops.

Your C 52056 is a gem. My guess about why revert to round tops at that "late date" could be that they found they had more of them stored than they thought after they started using the magnas? They sure as heck weren't going to throw them away. We have a few members with lettered 1959 Mod 10s that came with half moon front sights. Not many, of course.

Hey, you guys don't like any of the other guns? That early Centennial Airweight is a special favorite of mine.

The Colts ain't too shabby either.

 

[LEO918]

I don't know if this will ad to the discussion. I have an M&P 2" round butt serial number C 70788, you guessed it, round top grips numbered to the gun.