3 dead in IN mall shooting; witness kills gunman

[.455_Hunter]

Most Americans respect private property and private property rights.

Just a dumb question- I suspect you research all policy statements and codes of conduct ahead of time before going to ANY establishment correct? If you enter a facility and discover they have a "no weapons policy" or "no outside food policy", do you drop everything and run back to your car to secure your carry gun/holster and that half-eaten pack of gummy bears that were in your cargo pocket? To do anything less would be hypocritical and not respectful.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I would support a law which said that the owner of a business open to the public can prohibit open carry on its premises.

Whether the owner of a business open to the public can prohibit concealed carry is more nuanced.

Exactly.

I understand the negative connotations of open carry and how a business might not want that issue distracting from their operations.

On the other hand, concealed carry has zero negative implications for the vast majority of businesses and facilities.

If a business or facility wants to legally limit concealed carry, there should be a mandatory listing of what security procedures they must follow- 100% screening for all entrants (customers, staff, management, ownership), mandatory ratio of required armed security present, full assumption of liability for victims of violent criminal conduct on property, and providing secure storage of all patron weapons while on-site. Anything less is patronizing tassel-loafered security theater.

 

[majick47]

Last evening I saw a photo on line of the mall shooter covered in blood tagged dead on the mall floor. Some commented the photo was disrespectful to the shooters family. The gruesome photo if widely shown would do more to discourage other potential shooters than any sign or laws.

 

[Protocall_Design]

The shooter didn't seem to care about respecting the victims or their families.

 

[rosewood]

Well, you can bluster, retort, pontificate all you want about your "rights", thankfully society and the courts disagree with you and protect private property rights, despite your disdain for them

You are correct, you have the right to refuse access. I also have the right to stop shopping there. However, in many states as in this case, placing a sign that says no firearms carries no weight. You must ask the person to leave and if not, then they are trespassing. If you don't ask them to leave or they leave when asked, then no crime has been committed.

Rosewood

 

[tlawler]

Most Americans respect private property and private property rights.

My right to protect myself and loved ones precludes any business’ right to deny me the ability to do so. Unless it’s a law and clearly stated.

I once had to stay at a Hilton property in the Miami area on business at the last minute. I noticed a sign on the glass doors entering the lobby with a picture of a gun and the red “no access” stripe through it. Nope, sorry. No need to let them know I’m armed and I’m sure not going to leave my gun in the truck overnight. I was actually a little offended by the fact that a hotelier would expect that no one would come onto the property armed.

If you are talking about someone’s home. I respect that and leave gun locked up unless they are aware and approve. I have gun buddies that come over and I go to their houses and it’s just understood that we’re carrying. Naturally, it’s a safer environment and not presumptuous to assume a shooter is going to come in and start shooting as happens in a public place like a mall.

 

[RCL-09]

Just a dumb question- I suspect you research all policy statements and codes of conduct ahead of time before going to ANY establishment correct? If you enter a facility and discover they have a "no weapons policy" or "no outside food policy", do you drop everything and run back to your car to secure your carry gun/holster and that half-eaten pack of gummy bears that were in your cargo pocket? To do anything less would be hypocritical and not respectful.

Well I see that you're upset and resorting to childish retorts. Have fun.

 

[StakeOut]

Wow,this thread has turned into an argument about property rights.

I have not been to a local mall in some time but recollect a bit about the food court in the mall closest to home.
Cover and concealment are very limited and getting to it quickly will all depend on how close you are to it and your mental focus when things start to go south.
Being hidden doesn't guarantee you won't get hit.Cover may be more limited with the building support columns probably the best available if you cannot retreat.Naturally if you are a larger than normal person you may not fully fit behind a support column.
Distance is your friend and should be used.Advancing toward your adversary may not be a good move.
Spray and pray or aim each shot may depend on how much ammo you have.
You need to survive the odds that are all probably in the attacker's favor.
No matter how well you train the odds are the situation will be different than you imagined.
Staying focused and your marksmanship will win the day.
My on duty and off duty shootings ranged from 6 inches away to about 50 feet.
Even with all my special training and shooting ability I still got hit in the vest and a ricochet off my skull.
Stay Safe

 

[rosewood]

Wow,this thread has turned into an argument about property rights.

I have not been to a local mall in some time but recollect a bit about the food court in the mall closest to home.
Cover and concealment are very limited and getting to it quickly will all depend on how close you are to it and your mental focus when things start to go south.
Being hidden doesn't guarantee you won't get hit.Cover may be more limited with the building support columns probably the best available if you cannot retreat.Naturally if you are a larger than normal person you may not fully fit behind a support column.
Distance is your friend and should be used.Advancing toward your adversary may not be a good move.
Spray and pray or aim each shot may depend on how much ammo you have.
You need to survive the odds that are all probably in the attacker's favor.
No matter how well you train the odds are the situation will be different than you imagined.
Staying focused and your marksmanship will win the day.
My on duty and off duty shootings ranged from 6 inches away to about 50 feet.
Even with all my special training and shooting ability I still got hit in the vest and a ricochet off my skull.
Stay Safe

Thanks for your service. Glad you had a vest on and have a hard head.

 

[Laketime]

When I first got my permit to carry concealed in 1983,we were all told that the permit is solely between you and the state. This meant nobody needs to know that you are carry, and if done properly they shouldn't. Only the state outlines where you cannot go armed. Now this was liberal Boston which had a no guns allowed policy almost everywhere ,stores ,movie theaters, restaurants etc.

 

[Racer X]

Individual states have decided through laws if "no firearms" signs put up by a business are backed by law. In many states, those signs have no legal standing. In Washington, they have no legal force.

I use the "Concealed Carry Laws by State" smartphone app when I travel so I know my rights and responsibilities, and reciprocity. I have both a Washington and Arizona permit.

According to my app, the No Firearms sign in Indiana means nothing. And to be honest, I'd rather get a slap on the wrist in court as long as I live through whatever caused me to make my firearm known.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Well I see that you're upset and resorting to childish retorts. Have fun.

Interesting non-answer, but that's OK. It's easy to "talk the talk", but harder to "walk the walk" while focusing on subserviency to third-party policy signs.

 

[teletech]

Ten shots and eight hits in 15 seconds at 40 yards.
Sounds like his grandfather must have been a bullseye shooter.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkZ4enTeiNs[/ame]

Here's the Go-fund-me page set up to help the "good guy with a gun".
I would think it a kind gesture if all those who support carry might chip in a couple bucks to help make it a better outcome.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/elis-legal-fund

The mall praised Eli's actions and kept quiet about him breaking the rules, perhaps that would be a good thing to do more of in the online realm.

 

[dwh]

I normally try to stay out of these kind of threads as they tend to drift. This one hit closer to home than usual. My coworkers niece and her friend were the two girls that were wounded, along with another niece that ended up with bullet holes in her clothes and bags. Naturally she been upset all week, so we went after work for a beer yesterday. We discussed the situation along with the topic of gun control. She questioned me about assault rifle, concealed carry, tactics and vigilance. At the start she conversation she wanted to know why you need an AR/Ak. I did my best to explain the operation and history of semi rifles. At first she was at the remove all assault from the planet mind set(her words not mine). I explained that using a rifle in a mass shooting is the end result of a much deeper problem. We dove into how broken our society is broke homes, over medicated children and adolescents, no positive male role models, and the medias hero worship of these idiots. In the end she going to the range with me tomorrow to learn to shoot and work towards a ccw permit.


PS. Thanks for letting me share this. And maybe look for a go fund me for the victims as well.

 

[teletech]

PS. Thanks for letting me share this. And maybe look for a go fund me for the victims as well.

Thanks for sharing and for "going there" with someone affected.
Links on victim support:
Here’s how to donate to Greenwood Park Mall shooting victims, armed bystander - Daily Journal
Fundraiser for Milton Dominguez by Stephanie Codina : Pedro Pineda and Rosa Miriam Rivera de Pineda

 

[RCL-09]

Interesting non-answer, but that's OK. It's easy to "talk the talk", but harder to "walk the walk" while focusing on subserviency to third-party policy signs.

Still the personal attacks... Very telling.

 

[RCL-09]

You are correct, you have the right to refuse access. I also have the right to stop shopping there. However, in many states as in this case, placing a sign that says no firearms carries no weight. You must ask the person to leave and if not, then they are trespassing. If you don't ask them to leave or they leave when asked, then no crime has been committed.

Rosewood

Yes, I am very familiar with the trespassing statutes.

 

[eveled]

They just reported the first victim was also carrying concealed. He never had a chance was walking into the mens room as the shooter was walking out.

 

[UncleEd]

For those who like Paul Harrell
and his reports, you might want to
look at his latest Youtube re: this
shooting.

 

[m&p2.0fdethumbsafety]

They just reported the first victim was also carrying concealed. He never had a chance was walking into the mens room as the shooter was walking out.

this is what i read also. this is why having enough concealed carriers that the bad guy is always surrounded is a good idea. i wonder if there were others but they were too far away or too poorly equipped to deal with the situation.

For those who like Paul Harrell
and his reports, you might want to
look at his latest Youtube re: this
shooting.

seeing a shooter of his caliber miss with the smaller guns is very sobering. i switched from a pocket pistol to a compact awhile back for similar reasons. i want the flexibility of being able to engage someone from further than the much cited common 7 yard range.