32-44 Smith & Wesson Target "Bullet Design" confirmed!

[BMur]

I was fortunate enough to win this very early and extremely rare 32-44 S&W T (TARGET) Ideal reloading tool just today. Been looking for one for oh? about 30 years? Finally found it! This extremely rare surviving example in excellent condition proves many points that have remained unanswered for years. I've never even seen a photo of this tool before. Only those that are found in Ideal catalogs that date to about 1891.

So why is this tool so important?

First; It confirms the original bullet type( circa 1887)
Second: It will confirm original bullet diameter(.321?)
Third: It also confirms via cross referencing the Smith & Wesson peanut mold, when rarely found, we now can confirm that it is in fact the 32-44 Target bullet. Since the peanut molds are not marked. Left us guessing until now.

The Antique Reloading tool Collectors Association has also confirmed that via specific features? You can determine when an Ideal field loader was manufactured.( What year?)

Notice Photo 1? You can clearly see the priming feature is located forward of the bullet cavity. This feature was only found on early field loaders from 1884-1887. We also know that the target variations for the New Model 3 were introduced in late 1887. So this confirms that this "specific" extremely rare example was manufactured in 1887.(First year Target production)
It also confirms that the first bullet design seen on this specific tool in Photo 2 is the first type bullet for the 32-44 target Smith & Wesson in the first year of production. 1887!

Once I have the tool I will be able to also confirm the bullet diameter listed in few references as .321 being the first or original diameter bullet. (This has also been argued for many years)
The tool also has two points of reference for bullet diameter. Not only the bullet cavity? but also included in this late 1887 design is a bullet sizing feature. Which will be proof positive of the original bullet diameter.

Very exciting find for me personally. Not only does it answer and "confirm" a lot of questions? It will now allow me to load the proper bullet, size the bullet, and reload the case to reload and shoot my target 32-44. So now I can finally test fire it as it was originally designed so I can find out just how accurate it is. I'm stoked. Just thought I would share with the forum.

Murph

 

[H Richard]

Congrats, that's one heck of a long search.

 

[Bob L]

That is a real neat find!

 

[StrawHat]

Having searched for something (in my case only years, not decades) I can understand your elation. Congratulations!

One of the reasons I frequent this site is to avail myself of the breadth of knowledge available. The excitement of this discovery is more knowledge to be added to the field. I look forward to seeing what thiscmold will cast and tell us.

The bullet appears to be round nose flat point. One grease groove should be adequate for the minimal amount of powder for the 32 target load. 1887? Would that be blackpowder or were they experimenting with the nitros by the ?

I do not notice a crimp groove. For a target load you would not need one. Neck tension should hold the bullet in place.

Looking forward to seeing a photograph of the mold and revolver together.

Kevin

 

[Green Frog]

Great find Murph! Information about both the guns and loading for the early 32-44 has been sadly lacking for way too long. It's good to see how doggedly you are pursuing it, and this new acquisition should add to our body of knowledge.

As a FWIW, my peanut handle 32 mould drops an oversized bullet, about .316" IIRC. I had assumed it was because of the alloy I was using, but now I wonder if it may have been for the 32-44 too.

I've bookmarked this thread and will be following with great interest to see what else you can bring to light.

Regards,
Froggie

 

[BMur]

Follow-up photo's

Thanks for the positive feedback guys.

I will post follow up photo's and bullet spec's once I have the tool in hand to clarify the original bullet weight and diameter with a "pure lead" cast as designed. The original load was most definitely black powder in 1887. The bullet shown in the photo is an early inside lubricated bullet that was designed for "no" crimp. Just pressed into the case just below the tip of the case mouth. What the original lubricant was? I don't know but I will end up using soft lubricant for my shooting test (lithium). Which is accurate for that timeframe (callow or wax). As far as case length? That is easy because the chambers of the 32-44 target revolver have "case stops" which provide the correct case length for each chamber.
The historical claim for this Target load accuracy in the New Model 3 is 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards with target sights. That's a very impressive claim and somewhat hard to believe and I'm not going to believe it until I see it at the range.

I was pretty good with my 8 3/8" 44 Mag with open sights at 100 yards but no where near that accurate. Just enough to hit a pig or deer where it counts and fill the freezer in my younger days. My wife at that time made amazing Chile Verde stew.

The reason this mold is so rare is because of the year of production. 1887? That year represented many significant changes in the industry. Not only for Smith & Wesson but remaining specific to just Smith & Wesson we know for a fact that the Target variation was introduced that year. Also more significant is that the bullets for all the revolvers changed to "Inside Lubrication" in 1887. Which was a huge development.

So, it was a very pivotal year for the company products. Also, off the hook hard to find field loaders for that specific year. Any Target loaders are rare to extremely rare but one from the first year production I was beginning to think they didn't exist.

Like Charlie mentioned about his peanut mold? Often bullet casting from various rare target molds will have different diameter results. This was also feeding into legitimate opinions of the original bullet diameter of the 32-44 target round?

However, this early field loader will provide absolute proof of the original diameter bullet due to the "Bullet Sizing" feature that is a very rare feature on this early tool. Later rare target tools for some reason removed this feature. I don't know why but I can't wait to mic' that sizing die.

I suspect the bullet in pure lead will cast at about .323 which is Ideal's listing for the bullet diameter. This sizing die will be the absolute in this research. NO question!

Murph

 

[StrawHat]

Black powder will require specific black powder lube. Unless you plan to shoot hundreds of thousands rounds, I would suggest you buy a stick of blackpowder lube and plan on pan lubing the bullets. Others might suggest making your own lube, which is fun and educational but time spent not shooting.

Kevin

 

[Green Frog]

Instructions I have read (and copied into my article) from the period of the middle S&W loaders says to dip the nose of the finished round in melted beef tallow. I'd use that as a starting point.

Murph, did I send you a copy?

Froggie

 

[mmaher94087]

.32-44 mold

Here's mine. It's the later design of the .32-44 Ideal tool. The .38-44 tool is the early style. The .32-44 mold mic's to .319 cold.

 

[BMur]

Lubrication and case selection

Thanks Kevin and Charlie,
I plan on trying a couple of different lubricants. Charlie, I did hard copy those attachments that you sent me. Thanks again!

I honestly don't like to get to far ahead. I'm kind of a worry wart when it comes to "rare" package delivery? I'm bad, I admit it. I mean, I can't replace this item so I won't feel better until I have it in hand.

I'm also going to have to work on case selection. I know of a few rifle cases that will work but the early cases were balloon head design and held more black powder so I'm going to have to think about that aspect so I can shove as much black powder into the case as possible to achieve respectable bullet speed or my accuracy results will suffer I'm sure.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Mike's loader

Wow! Mike,
Your rare 32-44 T loader is a post 1902 version that has the spru screw lock on the loading block. I'm surprised that it still has the sizing die included. I've seen later examples that do not.

Can you please show a photo of the bullet cavity for both your loaders? Is your 32-44 the same as my earlier loader? Also, can you please mic the sizing die(the hole or boss on the back side of the tool) and post results?

Thanks,

Murph

 

[mmaher94087]

.32-44 mold

Murph, the sizing die is .345" at the depth the mic will go. It appears to be slightly tapered the deeper one probes. The hole starts at .363". Here's a few photos of the bullet molds of the two tools beginning with the .32-44 (two photos) then the .38-44. The design of the .32-44 appears the same as your photo but the bullet is round nose.

 

[BMur]

Case sizing die measurement

Mike,
Thanks much for taking the time to document the die. I think you are measuring the Case sizing/ loading die feature? That's the die with the Adjustable threaded stem?
See photo. The yellow arrow points to the "bullet" sizing die feature of the tool. This represents the absolute final bullet diameter once the molded and lubed bullet is pushed through that itty bitty hole. Could you please measure that hole from the outside of the handle? Going into the hole with your caliper from the yellow arrow side?
This will tell us the true designed final diameter of the cast lead bullet now lubed and sized before loading into the case.

Thanks!

Murph

 

[StrawHat]

Thanks Kevin and Charlie,
I plan on trying a couple of different lubricants. Charlie, I did hard copy those attachments that you sent me. Thanks again!

I honestly don't like to get to far ahead. I'm kind of a worry wart when it comes to "rare" package delivery? I'm bad, I admit it. I mean, I can't replace this item so I won't feel better until I have it in hand.

I'm also going to have to work on case selection. I know of a few rifle cases that will work but the early cases were balloon head design and held more black powder so I'm going to have to think about that aspect so I can shove as much black powder into the case as possible to achieve respectable bullet speed or my accuracy results will suffer I'm sure.

Murph

Totally understand the worry until in hand.

There are two Powders available today that are the equal of some of the old powders, Swiss and Olde Eynesford. I use OE and am quite pleased with it. For the 32, I would recommend using ffffG, or 4f. I use it in all of my handgun cartridges. And one rifle cartridge. One pound will probably get you a lifetime of loads.

Kevin

 

[mmaher94087]

Oops. I thought I could read and comprehend but I loused up on which die you were looking for. I measured the case sizing/loading die. To your question: The BULLET size is .321".

 

[Oyeboteb]

Great find Murph!!

How cool..!

The Bullet that old outfit Throws, appears to my own glance to be the same as the eventuating Ideal then Lyman 32362.

Here is a snap shot of my Lyman Mold, for that Bullet -

It is an odd little thing! Having the 'rounded' Base edges...

Hosted on Fotki

Hosted on Fotki

 

[BMur]

Lyman SC iron mold

Hey Phil,
Wow! That's a rare single cavity iron mold for sure and a late one to boot. Very serviceable. You could make thousands of bullets with that iron mold and sell them to target shooters! I can't imagine what other gun that bullet would be for since it only lists as the 32-44 target for bullet design, diameter, and weight. Great collectable!

I looked it up in my historical Ideal/Lyman list and it shows up but I always thought it was only offered in the old wood handled molds? I guess I was wrong. This would have to date post 1926 to ? but I also noticed that it was used in Ideal cases that were designed for a short range rifle...I don't know which one though?

see photo:

& Thanks much for posting!


Murph

 

[BMur]

Bullet sizing die measurement

Hey Mike,
Thanks much for following through with that sizing die measurement. See photo. You will notice from this circa 1891 Ideal catalog on page 19?

They list the final diameter of the "EARLY" bullet as .323. However, I was expecting the sizing diameter to be smaller from your later mold since it is very likely that your rare loader is from the later "Smokeless" era. Yours was manufactured from 1902-1910 when Marlin Firearms Co. bought out Ideal and the molds and tools are so marked.

I will cross reference my early Ideal loader bullet sizing die( Hopefully, when it arrives?) to see exactly what it measures? Will it be the same? I don't know. It is possible that the early sizer will be larger since it was designed and manufactured during the "Black powder era" and I have found in my research that often bullet diameters changed for the same caliber if they survived into the Smokeless Era. So we shall see.

NOTE: Did you notice also that it lists a "Black Powder load"? for the 32-44 and the 38-44? That's kinda "huge" too isn't it?

Murph

 

[orbruce]

32-44 Target bullet

Here's a few photos of an original S&W 32-44 reloading set. The bullet is very similar to the Ideal mold. When the bullet is seated through the long tube it's diameter is .320.

B. Mower

 

[BMur]

Powder cups?

B. Mower,
Great and rare kit. Can you convey please what the two powder cups are marked in your kit? Do they match the 1891 recommended black powder load for the 32-44?
Should be 11 grains on the larger cup and 6 grains for the Gallery or ball load?

Thanks for sharing.



Murph