.38 148 Grain HBWC Test

[hotrod150]

Forrest r:
Is the Charter Arms .44spl with 2" barrel a factory offering ?

I don't care for the newer Charter revolvers, but I kind of liked the old ones. They sure aren't a S&W though. I saw a blue Undercover at the LGS the other day for $245 & I was tempted (very briefly) to buy it, but I think I'll stick to my Chiefs.
I owned a 2" blue 38 Undercover & 3" stainless 22 Pathfinder back about 30 years ago. I don't know about later versions, but I recall the original 44 Bulldog being a 3" gun. if you look closely at the photo of Forrest's 2-incher, you'll see the barrel says "DOG 44 SPL"- obvious cut off from a longer barrel. The front sight has kind of an unusual shape tyoo.

 

[Forrest r]

The older "stratford" bulldogs could be special ordered with a 2" bbl. The standard bbl lengths were 21/2" & 3".

They were cheap guns back then & are still cheap guns today. They really didn't care about the lettering on the bbl. My brother ordered a new bulldog with a 2" bbl back in 1984, it had the same chopped up lettering. I ended up buying that pistol off of him, wore it out & have owned 2 more since then.

Are they a smith? No. They are a cheap truck/pocket pistol ( I have $300 in both of those pictured) that goes bang when the trigger is pulled, nothing more. When s&w comes out with a j-frame in 44spl, I'll buy 1.

 

[hotrod150]

HBWC are NOT INTENDED for "STOUT" LOADS.
HBWC would be SOFT lead and SWEDGED, NOT CAST.

As I understand it, the reason for warning against "stout loads" with the HBWC is that the gasses push on the inner bullet base (up inside the hollow base) more than on the edges of the bullet skirt, and too heavy a load will separate the bullet and send the end of the bullet down the barrel, leaving the skirt behind. Then the next bullet fired encounters the stuck skirt and bingo-- a bulged barrel. Reversing the HBWC lets the gasses push on the entire base of the resulting "ultra hollow point" bullet, so it will remain intact. Apparently Atomic Ammo hasn't had any problem with their +P "lead hollow point" (reversed HBWC) load- see the thread about them in the ammo forum. I don't know whose bullets Atomic uses, but I'm thinking about buying some Speer HBWC's & giving them a try in the reversed configuration.

 

[pete950]

Jimmy,

let me know if your interestead in any of these??
Cirillos "Safe Stop Bullets"

 

[hotrod150]

U ain't convinced me....I still don't see an advantage to the plated WC's, either hollow base or flat base. And I still see a disadvantage, since I don't have a 38 spl taper crimp die- just a roll crimp die.
The one advantage to plated might be to eliminate barrel leading, but so far I haven't had any leading issues with the Speer swaged SWC-HP at 800-850 fps so I expect I wouldn't have any with their HBWC either.
BTW Berry's website shows only DEWC plated bullets on the 38 caliber/.357" diameter page. The photo shows a button nose configuration but I don't know if both ends are button or if one is plain.

 

[4barrel]

plated 148 wc---- show & tell

U ain't convinced me....I still don't see an advantage to the plated WC's, either hollow base or flat base. And I still see a disadvantage, since I don't have a 38 spl taper crimp die- just a roll crimp die.
The one advantage to plated might be to eliminate barrel leading, but so far I haven't had any leading issues with the Speer swaged SWC-HP at 800-850 fps so I expect I wouldn't have any with their HBWC either.
BTW Berry's website shows only DEWC plated bullets on the 38 caliber/.357" diameter page. The photo shows a button nose configuration but I don't know if both ends are button or if one is plain.

U can back off on the roll crimp. Works in .357 also. My load aint in the book. They roll down the pipe close to the speed of sound. When they start getting squirrely @ 25 yards back off a little. A hollow base builds more pressure. I size my zippy loads to .356.

 

[gvsteve]

I load the Berry Plated DEWC with 4.1grs of HP38 in 357 Starline brass. Accurate and easy cleanup compared to Speer LHBWC. I'm shooting these in a 6" GP100

 

[H Richard]

Back when more modern ammo wasn't as available or easily obtained a self defense load for the 5-15 yard ranges was a 148 gr swagged lead HBWC seated in reverse for a pretty big HP. I just checked, and found a half box I made up in 1982. The load was 5.0 gr Unique with a CCI primer in a R-P nickle case. I seated the leading edge of the bullet out .100" from case mouth and taper crimped. I recall it being a reasonable good load, accuracy at 15 yards was in the 2" - 3" variety, and the velocity around 800 fps. It would mushroom out to double it's size in wet newspaper.

 

[hotrod150]

With the speed of sound being roughly 1100 fps, 4 barrel, those loads seem pretty steamy for a j-frame. I'd be more inclined toward something like what H Richard mentioned, only I'd use about 4.5 gr W231. Easy on the gun, easy on the shooter, but deadly on the receiving end.

 

[elpac3]

Key holes may not be necessarily be the fault of the bullet. When revolver shooting, you can induce key holes by "heeling" just as the round goes off.

 

[4barrel]

With the speed of sound being roughly 1100 fps, 4 barrel, those loads seem pretty steamy for a j-frame. I'd be more inclined toward something like what H Richard mentioned, only I'd use about 4.5 gr W231. Easy on the gun, easy on the shooter, but deadly on the receiving end.

1100 is 357 only in my 19-5 with a plated hbwc. with 2400--not lead. In my 36-1- 4.2 of 231 is what I use. The Berrys plated hbwc is longer & has more drag than a regular bullet is why I size to .356. It goes down the pipe easier & still groups ok @ 25. I don't make a habit of shooting high pressure loads. 99.9% is target loads only. I just wonted to see what the plated hbwc would stand up to & still group.

 

[hotrod150]

What is "heeling"?

 

[hotrod150]

Well I bought me a box of Speer 148 gr HBWC's. I plan to load some in the regular fashion for light-recoiling plinking loads, but will configure some as "lead hollow points" over 4.5 gr W231. I'll post results after I do.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Hi:
I hadn't considered this. The only place I have to shoot is an rather ancient indoor range with POOR lighting. The paper B-27 targets are hung at the top by two clips on a electric driven cable. Any movement at all has the target "Dancing".

I shot at a range like that a few years back. The target was held by 3 big clips so what I did was put a piece of cardboard behind the target and hang both from the clips. That solved any possibility of the target moving and looking like a mess! lol

 

[stu1ritter]

What is "heeling"?

Reacting to recoil (or anticipating recoil) by pushing the muzzle up by action of the heel of the hand.

Stu

 

[hotrod150]

Got some lead hollow points loaded up, but haven't shot them yet. I wanted a longer overall length, but any longer than this and the cartridges wouldn't go into the cylinder all the way. Short-throated chambers I guess. I also loaded some as HBWC's at the same OAL but over a lighter powder charge.

 

[hotrod150]

My old Speer #10 manual shows from 3.0 gr (749 fps) to 3.3 gr (804 fps) of W231 behind the 148 gr swaged HBWC. However it looks to me like Speer changed the design of this bullet a bit since then: it's now slightly shorter, has 2 grease grooves instead of 3, and they eliminated the crimp groove. Can anyone give me the W231 data for this bullet from later Speer books? Thanks.

 

[pete950]

Here is a picture of "Cirillo's Safe Stop" after being fired into water jugs. The one on the right fired from a friends Colt 2 inch Cobra at 750 fps penetrated 4 one gallon jugs and retaind all its weight. when fired from a 4 inch it got less penatraton and the bullet blew apart.

 

[hotrod150]

Good example of why higher velocity is not always better. It can mean more expansion resulting in less penetration and/or bullet failure. There must be a sweet spot for every expanding bullet- the trouble is finding it.

 

[SuperMan]

I have 32 of this

from many years ago but don't remember what load I had or powder.

Those are the old Hydra-Shok bullets that were made before Federal bought the rights to manufacturer. They also has a 158 grain SWC and 125 and 158 jacketed HSHPs... I still have a bunch left from when I used to be a commercial loader/reloader.

Alberts Bullet Co. used to make the swaged lead bullets for HS. A few years ago I found a 500 round box of the original HSWC bullet at a local gun store.

When I used to load they they ran 900+ fps from a 2" Model 36. The bullet would explode a one quart paper oil can and the cup would sluff off and the Hershey Kiss looking base would penetrate 6 more cans...it was the best of initial shock and deep penetration.

Here is a picture of a loaded round, bullet and recovered bullet...

..and here is the 158 lead and jacketed bullets...

The big problem with the original Scorpion round was the velocity was WAY too low...like 680 from a 2". The company wanted pretty recovered bullets and they would mushroom right out...and under penetrate. I remember a story about a gun writer waiting for a woodchck to pop out of his hole...when shot he ducked back in. The next time out he hear shot him...found bullet #1 fully expaned in the fat woodchuck... At 900+ fps they were MUCH more effective. Had a .357 load that ran in the 1100s. From a 6" scoped Python shot a 3" group at 50 yards...bullets showed no keyholeing because the center post helped stabilize it and the faster twist of the Colt barrels...

Bob

 

[hotrod150]

I shot my lead hollow point loads yesterday & got some keyholing on the target at 7 yards. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Loaded in standard HBWC fashion they shot well.

 

[Ceapea]

The latest issue of Handloader Magazine has an article on this very subject. Tested loads from 2 inch J frame, Bullseye powder, 148 gr swaged HBWC loaded hollow base as hollow point. Long story short the winning load was 3.5 grs BE @ 801 fps expansion was .715 inch ( almost 3/4 inch ).
Second place was 3.4 grs. BE, @ 767 fps, expanded to .625 inch ( 5/8 inch ) .
No details given on bullet seating depth, accuracy and tumbling....seems like he could have said something about these factors. But 3.5 grs will give you the 800 fps out of the 2 inch barrel which was the speed I was looking for.

Gary

This past weekend, I loaded and shot some of those 148gr reversed, HBWC's. All with the max recommended 3.5gr B.E. From 8' at 1 gal water jugs. They all opened to between .715" to .731". All but one had nice solid mushroom heads. The one opened to .730 with a very small split in the major dia. "mushroom".
All went through 2 complete milk jugs, puncturing the third and falling into the 2nd jug.
That equates to just over 12" penetration at the above mentioned expanded diameters. The load felt pretty mild from my 2 1/8" model 60. I didn't chrono them and am inclined to leave it at 3.5gr B.E., though I believe they could do with a bit more.
All in all, it was pretty cool testing.
No pic's yet, but here are a few water jug test pics from a few years ago...

45 Golden Saber opened to .754", 40 S&W PDX1 opened to .723", 9mm Golden Saber opened to .678" and a 380 Critical Defense opened to .489"
Not too bad!

 

[hotrod150]

Interesting jacket separation on the Golden Sabers- esp the 45.

 

[hotrod150]

My old Speer #10 manual shows from 3.0 gr (749 fps) to 3.3 gr (804 fps) of W231 behind the 148 gr swaged HBWC. However it looks to me like Speer changed the design of this bullet a bit since then: it's now slightly shorter, has 2 grease grooves instead of 3, and they eliminated the crimp groove. Can anyone give me the W231 data for this bullet from later Speer books? Thanks.

No one ever responded to this request. Can someone take a Photo of the 148 HBWC load data from the Speer #14 manual and post it, or email it to me? Thanks.
[email protected]

 

[hotrod150]

FWIW I looked in the back of my Speer #10 manual and discovered that while S&W's uses 1 in 18-3/4" rifling for 38 special, Colt uses 1 in 14". That's about 25% more twist and might make the difference between stabilizing a reversed HBWC at normal speeds (800-850 fps) or not.

 

[hotrod150]

.

When I went back & looked at this photo (posted earlier in this discussion), I wondered why some people on this board keep saying that S&W can't build a k-frame 5-shot 44spl or 45 Colt revolver due to physical constraints. This Charter Arms Bulldog doesn't look any bigger overall than the Chief Special-sized Undercover, and is certainly no bigger than a k-frame S&W, but they made it work.

 

[X Ring]

I have 32 of this

from many years ago but don't remember what load I had or powder.

I have 100 of those, bought long ago, never loaded them.

 

[pete950]

I have 100 of those, bought long ago, never loaded them.

2.8 grains of BE works the best with that bullet!!

 

[gwpercle]

Ceapea,
Thanks for posting your results. Over 12 inches penetration and .715 expansion sounds pretty good to me. How was accuracy? Any tumbling ? Try and post pictures , would like to see them.
Now I've just got to find some of them HBWC. Out of curiosity , what brand were you shooting?
Very cool testing.

 

[Ceapea]

Ceapea,
Thanks for posting your results. Over 12 inches penetration and .715 expansion sounds pretty good to me. How was accuracy? Any tumbling ? Try and post pictures , would like to see them.
Now I've just got to find some of them HBWC. Out of curiosity , what brand were you shooting?
Very cool testing.

You're welcome!

Well, accuracy was not really a concern as my intention to have them for close range use. Though really, I tend to use factory ammo for self defense needs. I was curious about these loads after reading that article is all. As I mentioned, the test was shot at 8ft. and it went to the center of the jugs, where I was aiming. So good enough I guess.
The bullets were either Precision Delta or Zero. Those are the only two swaged HBWCs that I have had in the past years.
I will see if I can find the expanded/shot bullets and post a pic.