38/200 pix

[Hamden]

Here's that 38/200 that was supposed to go to South Africa before the war. The blue is better than the first pix but not quite as good as in the second. I'm working on my lighting and camera skills.
And I can not find any British or SA marks on it anywhere.

12-20-11: Still need to take time to make better pix. The light on the barrel is glare, not wear.

 

[PJGP]

Originally posted by Hamden:
Here's that 38/200 that was supposed to go to South Africa before the war.

I hate to have to say this guys, but you Yanks must remember that the war started in 1939. You were late, just as in 1917! South Africa ordered 4" S&Ws in Feb 1940.

Peter

 

[Hamden]

Alright. My bad. My Yank perspective. Not always correct perspective.

Factory letter says shipped to Union of South Africa May 3, 1940. Letter goes on to say it was one of 1200 units ordered. There are no extra marks on this gun.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hamden:

I think your photo skills are fine, better than most. A very nice revolver, too. Does it have a lanyard ring?

Would you mind posting the complete serial, or sending it to me offline, so that we can include your SA gun in the Victory Model Database? Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

 

[H P Bushrod]

Nice!

 

[PJGP]

Originally posted by Hamden:
Factory letter says shipped to Union of South Africa May 3, 1940. Letter goes on to say it was one of 1200 units ordered. There are no extra marks on this gun.

The factory letter is wrong Hamden!

My research has uncovered that what happened was at the end of May 1940 SA agreed to transfer to the British the 4000 or so revolvers that were ready for shipment to SA (Britain was desperate for handguns). It is clear that the guns had left the factory, but had not yet been shipped to SA, and so S&W records do not show Britain as the destination. The British then returned the 4000 odd to SA in July/August from the S&W production against British orders.

The first 2200 S&W revolvers actually shipped to SA were sent in July and received in mid August 1940. All were stamped on the backstrap (as were subsequent shipments) with the Arrow in U property mark and a serial number.

Peter

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

PJGP;

I've read your comments above and in past threads disputing Roy Jinks letters concerning shipping of these revolvers, with interest. I too have a .38/200 that letters from S&W as shipped to SA in May 1940. It does not have the U property mark or a serial number on the backstrap.

Have you discussed your research with Mr. Jinks? If your research is valid, this would obviously change the pedigree of these important arms, at least according to the historical letters that have documented them as being "Union of South Africa" shipped. Perhaps Mr. Jinks' position is that the letter merely reflects the shipping records on file at S&W, rather than the actual receiving records at the delivery destination?

Hamden;

One of the nicest overall condition Brit Service Revolvers I've seen in quite some time. Very nice indeed!

 

[PJGP]

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:
PJGP;

Perhaps Mr. Jinks' position is that the letter merely reflects the shipping records on file at S&W, rather than the actual receiving records at the delivery destination?

Absolutely Hamden. S&W delivered "free alonside ship in New York". Shipping was organised by the SA Legation in Washington. later on shipping was controlled by the British Purchasing Commission in New York.

How do I post a picture on this forum?

Peter

 

[PJGP]

Oops! Sorry Lefty, it was you and not Hamden I should have addressed.

Peter

 

[mtb1bkr]

Originally posted by PJGP:
Oops! Sorry Lefty, it was you and not Hamden I should have addressed.

Peter

Here you go!!

 

[Hamden]

This is all so cool. I say again that mine pictured does not have any non-factory stamping marks at all. Apparently S&W sent it towards South Africa. Did it go to Britain? South Africa? Why is it not marked? How it got to Oregon is a mystery.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Originally posted by Hamden:
This is all so cool. I say again that mine pictured does not have any non-factory stamping marks at all. Apparently S&W sent it towards South Africa. Did it go to Britain? South Africa? Why is it not marked? How it got to Oregon is a mystery.

Well let's look at this another way. My revolver is covered with civilian Birmingham proofs, I believe the "view mark" is from sometime in the 50's. Apparently, it was surplused for commercial sale or export from Britain at that point. That would account for a gun that letters as being shipped to SA having Birmingham proofs and lends some possible support to Peter's assertion that it never went to South Africa at all, but was part of the shipment diverted to Great Britain. My revolver was bought from a dealer in Texas. I'm in New York. So I share the same curiosity as Hamden (and probably a whole bunch of other members) as to how;

A gun manufactured for the British Commonwealth left the factory in Springfield Mass. shipping to South Africa via New York by ocean going freighter, but in the interim was diverted for shipment and ultimately delivered, in England. Where did these revolvers travel to next? Did they remain in England? Were they issued elsewhere in the Commonwealth for the war effort based upon critical need? There are no broad arrow British military acceptance marks to be found anywhere on this revolver, which gives rise to another question. Does anyone have or know of a British Service Revolver that falls in the "South Africa Shipment Serial Range" (May 1940) that has British military broad arrow acceptance marks?

Pictured above with Btitish Pattern 37 pistol lanyard.

Commercial proofs.

View Mark Birmingham proof house.


The commercial proofs seen on my revolver #687XXX, certainly establishes that it was in England after the war, that seems irrefuteable based upon the evidence. Where it was during the war is another question made even more puzzling by Peter's recent assertions contrary to Mr. Jinks record of shipment. Obviously it came back into the US sometime later, probably c.1950's as surplus. Now it's back in New York where it departed for war nearly 70 years ago. I almost feel obliged to bring it back to the factory to complete the long round trip journey home.

I certainly want to hear more discussion on this subject.

Edited to add;
Would like to hear from Charlie Flick, Linda and few other members who own these BSR's. Also as an aside, I bought this revolver some years ago from a Dallas TX. dealer who had it tagged as a "Model 10 in .38 Special that's been all marked up." The Brit's do go a bit overboard with the proof marks!

 

[PJGP]

Can I ask again - how do I post a picture on this forum?

Peter

 

[Chromedhearts]

Originally posted by PJGP:
Can I ask again - how do I post a picture on this forum?

Peter

Go to the above post by mt1bkr and click on the linky that he posted.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:

Does anyone have or know of a British Service Revolver that falls in the "South Africa Shipment Serial Range" (May 1940) that has British military broad arrow acceptance marks?

Hi Lefty:

I have never encountered a 4 inch .38 S&W revolver in the South African serial number range which displayed the British Broad Arrow property mark. I just did a quick search of the Pre-Victory and Victory Database, which LWCmdr45 and I maintain. I found that none of the 16 guns listed in the So. African range (in 4" .38 S&W) had a recorded British Broad Arrow property mark.

This could mean:
A. The South African guns did not go to the UK for military service.
B. The South African guns did go to the UK for military service but did not receive the Broad Arrow marking.
C. Some of the South African guns did go to the UK and had the Broad Arrow marking applied, but have not been observed and recorded in the Database.

Take your pick.

Question for Peter: You wrote that "My research has uncovered that what happened was at the end of May 1940 SA agreed to transfer to the British the 4000 or so revolvers that were ready for shipment to SA (Britain was desperate for handguns). It is clear that the guns had left the factory, but had not yet been shipped to SA, and so S&W records do not show Britain as the destination. The British then returned the 4000 odd to SA in July/August from the S&W production against British orders."
Can you please share with us what sources your research relied upon? SA Defense Forces documents, SA government docs, published sources in SA, or perhaps something else? We are all trying to learn something here and I'm sure we would all like to hear more on this. Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Originally posted by ordnanceguy:

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:

Does anyone have or know of a British Service Revolver that falls in the "South Africa Shipment Serial Range" (May 1940) that has British military broad arrow acceptance marks?

Hi Lefty:

I have never encountered a 4 inch .38 S&W revolver in the South African serial number range which displayed the British Broad Arrow property mark. I just did a quick search of the Pre-Victory and Victory Database, which LWCmdr45 and I maintain. I found that none of the 16 guns listed in the So. African range (in 4" .38 S&W) had a recorded British Broad Arrow property mark.

This could mean:
A. The South African guns did not go to the UK for military service.
B. The South African guns did go to the UK for military service but did not receive the Broad Arrow marking.
C. Some of the South African guns did go to the UK and had the Broad Arrow marking applied, but have not been observed and recorded in the Database.

Take your pick.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

Charlie;

For the moment at least, until we get some hard evidence concerning this historical dispute, I'll have to pick;

D. In May 1940, according to S&W records, it left the factory to be shipped to the Union of South Africa, via New York by ocean freighter. Sometime after the war, about c.1950, this British Contract Service Revolver was in Birmingham, England.

Those are the established facts, known to date. Until verifiable research data appears to the contrary, that's the story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[digi-shots]

Very puzzling...

Lefty, I'm in agreement and will vote for "D".

Factory records show the guns were shipped to South Africa by way of New York. I wonder if both the May 3rd and May 22nd shipments could have left NY on the same ship to their overseas destination?

I've wondered if the first shipment(s)of SA guns were not stamped with the SA "U" on the backstrap. So far from what I've learned, these early SA guns were in two different 1940 shipments from Smith & Wesson: May 3rd (1200 guns) and May 22 (1400 guns) and none have shown up yet with the "U" on the backstrap.

It would be very interesting to find out who paid for these May 1940 shipments... England or South Africa? This time frame was during the US Neutrality Act and shipments were "cash & carry".

Peter, a while back I think you mentioned that SA's first order was placed 2/19/1940 for a total of 8,800 revolvers. Do you know when this order was filled or paid? Any help you can share would be great!

Lefty, cool pic.. I like the FS dagger!

Linda
SWCA #1965

In the meantime, here's a pic of my .38/200 serial number 686,338 shipped on May 3, 1940:

 

[PJGP]

Charlie, I have been doing extensive research on handguns in South Africa 1900-1965 in the SA National and Defence Force archives. However, the UK doc came via a contact in the UK.

Initially SA offered the whole 8800 4" S&Ws ordered in Feb 1940, but Britain only took the 4000 that were ready for shipping (free alongside ship) and the 600 that were nearly ready. Britain replaced 4000 in July and 600 in August from the S&W production for them.

The first S&Ws arrived in SA in mid August and the lowest S/N I have found so far is 690876 (UDF No 811), which I have. The lowest UDF No I have seen is 112 S/N 693675. I have seen S/Ns 656437 and 691334 with no UDF markings or numbers. I assume that these were diverted guns, although why they are in SA I don't know. Lefty, I would appreciate the full S/N of your gun, which falls in between the above two. It received its Birmingham proof stamps in 1958 (code I)

Peter

 

[digi-shots]

Peter,

Thanks so much for posting the information on the diverted guns. I think this helps answer quite a few of the questions I've had.

Do the 2 guns you mentioned (656,437 and 691,334) have any "view marks" or broad arrows? Do you know if anyone has lettered them to find out what date they were shipped.

So far, I've only been able to find 2 of these early shipments - May 3rd and May 22nd, which only accounts for 2600 out of a total of 4600 guns.
There should be another shipment or two from Smith & Wesson.

Linda
SWCA #1965

 

[David LaPell]

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Peter;

I would be happy to provide the full serial number. Your email address is not posted in your profile. You can email me, from my profile, and I'll reply with the serial number.

Linda;

While everyone else seems to have been chasing Victory's in recent years, seems to me these were one of the scarcer guns to catch. Nice photo!

Charlie;

Are any of the 16 SA shipped guns in the Victory database marked with "U" property marks or SA serial numbers, that you know of?

Edited to add;

Interestingly, another one of these SA serial range BSR's has just come to my attention. Coincidentally, out of Texas once again. Ser#6870XX. I'm negotiating with the present owner. Has the same civilian Birmingham proofs, unsure of any U property marks or the date of the Birmingham view mark but my guess is they will probably be the same as mine. About 90% plus original finish but well scratched up from handling as surplus. Will keep you informed as negotiations progress.

 

[digi-shots]

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:

Linda;

While everyone else seems to have been chasing Victory's in recent years, seems to me these were one of the scarcer guns to catch.

QUOTE]

Lefty, I agree 100% The stamped South African "U" and the New Zealand "NZ" ones are not that common, but at least they're marked.
These late range 600,000 series pre-Victory's don't seem to surface very often and when they do, they're overlooked.

It seems reasonable to assume that these guns were desperately needed after Dunkirk (May 26 - June 4, 1940). This may account for the lack of broad arrow stampings. The timeline seems to fit well with the dates on the documents that Peter posted.

Linda

 

[PJGP]

Do the 2 guns you mentioned (656,437 and 691,334) have any "view marks" or broad arrows? Do you know if anyone has lettered them to find out what date they were shipped.Linda
SWCA #1965

Regretably Linda I didn't record where I saw either of these revolvers. However, I am sure that they didn't have any British markings. I an also sure that no one here in SA even knows what "lettering" means!

Peter

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hi Peter:

Thank you for providing copies of the documents obtained as a result of your research efforts. This kind of primary source material is very hard to come by. It is important information and certainly helps to fill in some of the gaps in the information on the SA guns.

Do you have any plans to publish the results of your research? If so, I hope that you will let us know when and where that occurs as I am certain that many members here would be interested in reading your contribution to the body of knowledge on these martial arms.

Thanks again.

Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

 

[ordnanceguy]

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:
Charlie;

Are any of the 16 SA shipped guns in the Victory database marked with "U" property marks or SA serial numbers, that you know of?

Hello Lefty:

I just checked the Database. Of the 16 SA guns recorded in the Database only 4 of them are recorded as having the U property mark or SA UDF serials.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

 

[ordnanceguy]

Originally posted by digi-shots:
So far, I've only been able to find 2 of these early shipments - May 3rd and May 22nd, which only accounts for 2600 out of a total of 4600 guns. There should be another shipment or two from Smith & Wesson.

Linda
SWCA #1965

Hi Linda:

From the Victory Model Database I can tell you that we have recorded additional shipments of S&W revolvers from the factory to South Africa on June 4, 1940 and July 8, 1940. The number of units in each of these shipments is not recorded, however.

Hope that helps you.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

 

[ordnanceguy]

Originally posted by PJGP:
The first S&Ws arrived in SA in mid August and the lowest S/N I have found so far is 690876 (UDF No 811), which I have. The lowest UDF No I have seen is 112 S/N 693675. I have seen S/Ns 656437 and 691334 with no UDF markings or numbers.

Peter

Hello Again, Peter:

Am I correct in assuming that all four of these revolvers mentioned are in .38 S&W with 4" barrels?

By the way, the lowest serial number for a SA gun that we have recorded in the Victory Model Database is 685350 which has a factory letter indicating shipment to SA on May 3, 1940. It is recorded as having no U mark or SA UDF serial but does have the post-war British commercial proofmarks.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

 

[digi-shots]

Originally posted by ordnanceguy:

From the Victory Model Database I can tell you that we have recorded additional shipments of S&W revolvers from the factory to South Africa on June 4, 1940 and July 8, 1940. The number of units in each of these shipments is not recorded, however.

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for the added info... I was aware of the July 8, 1940 shipment. I believe Peter had posted info sometime ago on a gun from that shipment - 692085, UDF968, - shipment arrived in S.A. sometime in August of 1940.

I was not aware of a shipment on June 4, 1940. Do you know if the gun you have in your database from this shipment has a UDF number? vs. post war British view marks?

Thanks,
Linda

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hi Linda:

The Database shows two SA revolvers that shipped 6-4-40. Neither is recorded as having any military, property or postwar commercial markings.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

 

[Texas Star]

Have any of you read that many of the .38/200's sent to the UK in 1940 were so urgently needed that they were issued to troops without being British proofed until after the war, when sold as surplus?

Wish that I could recall where I read that...Probably also applied to Colt .38's shipped at that time.

T-Star