38/200 pix

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Peter;

I would be happy to provide the full serial number. Your email address is not posted in your profile. You can email me, from my profile, and I'll reply with the serial number.

Linda;

While everyone else seems to have been chasing Victory's in recent years, seems to me these were one of the scarcer guns to catch. Nice photo!

Charlie;

Are any of the 16 SA shipped guns in the Victory database marked with "U" property marks or SA serial numbers, that you know of?

Edited to add;

Interestingly, another one of these SA serial range BSR's has just come to my attention. Coincidentally, out of Texas once again. Ser#6870XX. I'm negotiating with the present owner. Has the same civilian Birmingham proofs, unsure of any U property marks or the date of the Birmingham view mark but my guess is they will probably be the same as mine. About 90% plus original finish but well scratched up from handling as surplus. Will keep you informed as negotiations progress.

 

[digi-shots]

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:

Linda;

While everyone else seems to have been chasing Victory's in recent years, seems to me these were one of the scarcer guns to catch.

QUOTE]

Lefty, I agree 100% The stamped South African "U" and the New Zealand "NZ" ones are not that common, but at least they're marked.
These late range 600,000 series pre-Victory's don't seem to surface very often and when they do, they're overlooked.

It seems reasonable to assume that these guns were desperately needed after Dunkirk (May 26 - June 4, 1940). This may account for the lack of broad arrow stampings. The timeline seems to fit well with the dates on the documents that Peter posted.

Linda

 

[PJGP]

Do the 2 guns you mentioned (656,437 and 691,334) have any "view marks" or broad arrows? Do you know if anyone has lettered them to find out what date they were shipped.Linda
SWCA #1965

Regretably Linda I didn't record where I saw either of these revolvers. However, I am sure that they didn't have any British markings. I an also sure that no one here in SA even knows what "lettering" means!

Peter

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hi Peter:

Thank you for providing copies of the documents obtained as a result of your research efforts. This kind of primary source material is very hard to come by. It is important information and certainly helps to fill in some of the gaps in the information on the SA guns.

Do you have any plans to publish the results of your research? If so, I hope that you will let us know when and where that occurs as I am certain that many members here would be interested in reading your contribution to the body of knowledge on these martial arms.

Thanks again.

Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

 

[ordnanceguy]

Originally posted by oldflatfoot:
Charlie;

Are any of the 16 SA shipped guns in the Victory database marked with "U" property marks or SA serial numbers, that you know of?

Hello Lefty:

I just checked the Database. Of the 16 SA guns recorded in the Database only 4 of them are recorded as having the U property mark or SA UDF serials.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

 

[ordnanceguy]

Originally posted by digi-shots:
So far, I've only been able to find 2 of these early shipments - May 3rd and May 22nd, which only accounts for 2600 out of a total of 4600 guns. There should be another shipment or two from Smith & Wesson.

Linda
SWCA #1965

Hi Linda:

From the Victory Model Database I can tell you that we have recorded additional shipments of S&W revolvers from the factory to South Africa on June 4, 1940 and July 8, 1940. The number of units in each of these shipments is not recorded, however.

Hope that helps you.

Regards,
Charlie Flick
S&WCA #729
NRA Life
S&WHF

 

[ordnanceguy]

Originally posted by PJGP:
The first S&Ws arrived in SA in mid August and the lowest S/N I have found so far is 690876 (UDF No 811), which I have. The lowest UDF No I have seen is 112 S/N 693675. I have seen S/Ns 656437 and 691334 with no UDF markings or numbers.

Peter

Hello Again, Peter:

Am I correct in assuming that all four of these revolvers mentioned are in .38 S&W with 4" barrels?

By the way, the lowest serial number for a SA gun that we have recorded in the Victory Model Database is 685350 which has a factory letter indicating shipment to SA on May 3, 1940. It is recorded as having no U mark or SA UDF serial but does have the post-war British commercial proofmarks.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

 

[digi-shots]

Originally posted by ordnanceguy:

From the Victory Model Database I can tell you that we have recorded additional shipments of S&W revolvers from the factory to South Africa on June 4, 1940 and July 8, 1940. The number of units in each of these shipments is not recorded, however.

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for the added info... I was aware of the July 8, 1940 shipment. I believe Peter had posted info sometime ago on a gun from that shipment - 692085, UDF968, - shipment arrived in S.A. sometime in August of 1940.

I was not aware of a shipment on June 4, 1940. Do you know if the gun you have in your database from this shipment has a UDF number? vs. post war British view marks?

Thanks,
Linda

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hi Linda:

The Database shows two SA revolvers that shipped 6-4-40. Neither is recorded as having any military, property or postwar commercial markings.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

 

[Texas Star]

Have any of you read that many of the .38/200's sent to the UK in 1940 were so urgently needed that they were issued to troops without being British proofed until after the war, when sold as surplus?

Wish that I could recall where I read that...Probably also applied to Colt .38's shipped at that time.

T-Star

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Finalized the deal on my newly acquired BSR SA serial range # 6870XX. Thanks to a friend, we learned from Roy Jinks that it shipped on May 3, 1940. So it would appear that I now have one from each of the May 1940 ship dates.
Here's a photo of the one I bought yesterday.

These are the sellers photos. I will not have it in hand until early this next week. I have a pair of correct service style stocks to replace the existing aftermarket plastic and a correct lanyard ring so that's no problem. After I get it cleaned up and back to form I'll post new photos. Sold by an 88 year old gentleman. I'm trying to get more information on his recollection of where and when he acquired it. He's old enough to have been a WWII vet. I'll know more next week.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Originally posted by digi-shots:

It seems reasonable to assume that these guns were desperately needed after Dunkirk (May 26 - June 4, 1940). This may account for the lack of broad arrow stampings. The timeline seems to fit well with the dates on the documents that Peter posted.

Linda

KKG;

Linda's observation of the emergency and panic atmosphere following the rescue and massive evacuation effort by the Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and civilian British mariners at Dunkirk, might be the reference which you cite, but cannot recall. It is definitely compatible with the timeline and dates from Peter, S&W (Jinks) and historical source material. This just gets better when more of us contribute information. Thank you!

 

[Hamden]

For everyone information, my thread starter, May 3, 1940 shipped SA BSR 4" blue is sn 6852xx. And it has no lanyard loop. Only a hole.

Also the grips are numbered to the gun.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Hamden;

Try SARCO.com or Numrich Gun Parts co. online catalogs. I think they both have them. Also check gunbroker.com there is one listed now but the rules here prohibit links to live auctions. Just go to gunbroker and enter "lanyard swivel" or "lanyard ring" in the search terms. Or you can post in the accessories wanted section of the classifieds here on the forum. Good luck.

Thanks also for starting this thread!

 

[digi-shots]

Hamden, great thread, thanks for starting it!

Lefty, congrats on your new find! Like you said, now you have one from each of the May 1940 shipments.

Quite a while back, I started researching ship transports between NY and Capetown, S.A. and came up with a quite a few. Two ships in particular, the West Isleta and the West Cawthon (Carthon), made the trip fairly regularly. However, they both stopped making the NY-Capetown run around the end of May and the beginning of June 1940. These ships were privately owned up until this time when ownership was transferred to the British Ministry of War Transport (MoWT),and renamed Empire Merlin and Empire Bison.

Both ships started their transatlantic crossings and sailed in convoys from Halifax, Nova Scotia to Liverpool in May and June of 1940 (Empire Merlin departed Halifax on May 28th in Convoy HX-46 and the Empirie Bison on July 15th in Convoy HX-58 arriving in Liverpool on July 31, 1940).

The Empire Merlin was sunk on her return voyage departing Liverpool on July 5, 1940. Empire Bison made her next few crossings safely, but unfortunately was sunk on a crossing between Halifax and Liverpool on November 1, 1940.

I guess we may never know for sure when or where these BSR guns shipped after arriving in NY, but from Peter's information, we know they were diverted from their original destination.

I'll continue my research and see what develops. There were many ships in and out of NY during this time period. The West Cawthon/Empire Bison has caught my attention. After arriving in NY on her regular run from Capetown on June 6, 1940 she sat at the dock for over a month, awaiting a new Captain and crew, before joining a convoy out of Halifax for her first transatlantic crossing to Liverpool.

Linda

 

[Speedo2]

Well, once again this site has been a bad influence on me. All this great history got me "sensitized" to, and more aware of these great weapons. Wouldn't you know it, but one just happened to be lurking at my favorite shop this morning. Nothing as exotic or as well-traveled as the SA's and BSR's that you all have been writing about; it's just a 4" 38 Spl. marked "Westinghouse PD 8, Massilon"; no proof marks or "US Property" roll stamp. But it's in great condition, although missing it's lanyard ring. I suspect it's a defense plant edition. Anyway, it's on Speedo's perpetual lay-away shelf; photos in a couple of weeks.

Hamden and others: thanks for starting and developing this thread. The history that the Victory editions touched is humbling; it's nice to be able to hold a little bit of it in my hands. -S2

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Originally posted by digi-shots:

Lefty, congrats on your new find! Like you said, now you have one from each of the May 1940 shipments.

I guess we may never know for sure when or where these BSR guns shipped after arriving in NY, but from Peter's information, we know they were diverted from their original destination.

Linda

Thanks Linda! As an aside, I wonder if these (and other) ships cargo manifests are available? They certainly must be declassified.

Is anybody researching declassified British source documents that concern distribution, allocation or assignment of small arms to their military forces following the BPC contract with S&W?

We have a fairly good timeline and some fundamental leads. There must be some record of where, when and how many of these weapons were distributed for issue after they arrived in Britain. Since many were unmarked should we suppose the serial numbers were recorded by the BPC and other relevant departments as they were distributed for field issue?

I am well aware that the Brits were copious record keepers. There must also be some record of accounting for the surplused small arms after the war, which might be a better place to start investigating? Working end to beginning, so to speak.

 

[Hamden]

In the 1950s "Guns" magazine found on the web, there are regular advertisements of 38 S&W revolvers for sale. They look just like these. Priced less than $30. International Firearms Co of Quebec, then Vermont, are the sellers I noticed.

I bought mine for the inflated price of $125

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Originally posted by Hamden:
In the 1950s "Guns" magazine found on the web, there are regular advertisements of 38 S&W revolvers for sale. They look just like these. Priced less than $30. International Firearms Co of Quebec, then Vermont, are the sellers I noticed.

I bought mine for the inflated price of $125

Man, you stole that one!

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Well, I finally got round to pick up the second BSR from the South Africa shipment(pictured at bottom) and found it needing some TLC. Got her up and running, replaced the plastic magnas with the correct stocks. Both of these have been rode hard and put away wet, but have perfect minty bores and cylinder chambers. The actions are excellent too.

I found a nice British Military Police revolver and whistle lanyard to go along with the British Pattern 37 Lanyard. Now I'm looking for the correct holsters. I had one the same as pictured in Linda's photo, but thought that was for the tanker model Enfield revolver, with spurless hammer? I'm wondering which of the Brit WWII holsters may have been used for these, if you have an idea, let me know?