38-44 load chrono data

[DWalt]

"I know it's been mentioned before but there is a published advertisement by Smith & Wesson that's dates to post WW2 but before model #s that clearly says the 38-44 is safe to shoot in K Frames of the day. So I don't think the load stated would be unsafe in modern K Frames. "

As discussed here numerous times in the past, back in the day, most .38 Special revolvers (Colt and S&W) were advertised as being suitable for use with the .38-44 loads. Remington's ammunition catalogs of the 1930s provided no warnings against firing .38-44 ammunition in any .38 Special revolver, only a general statement warning that recoil would be excessive if fired in lighter-frame revolvers. Evidently, no one back then felt that using .38-44 ammunition in an M&P or a Colt Police Positive Special presented any safety hazard. And I'd bet that most of the good ol' boys shot .38-44 in their M&Ps as a regular thing.

 

[Davinman]

I shoot alot of unique in 38 special, but i tend to top out my 38 loads at 5gr w/a 158gr swc. Although in 357mag i regularly load 6gr unique & 6.6gr unique w/a 158gr swc, these loads are very accurate and mild enough to shoot all day. BTW shot over my chrono, 6 grains runs 1040fps, and 6.6 runs 1080fps from my python.

 

[DWalt]

Additional Unique information. The 1977 Hornady Handbook shows a maximum .38 Special load of 6.1 grains of Unique with a 158 grain LRN or LSWC bullet for a MV of 1050 ft/sec. Test gun used was a 6" K-38.

"...11.0 grs /2400 was his fav 38 special load . I don't know how that compares to 38-44 loads?"

That will be very close if used with a 158 grain lead bullet. MV from a 6" barrel would likely be in the low 1100 ft/sec range, which is about what the .38-44 factory load produced. An early 1960s Lyman handbook shows a top .38-44 load of 11.8 grains of 2400 and a gas-check 158 grain lead bullet having a MV of 1210 ft/sec (barrel length not given, probably 6").

 

[38SPL HV]

38-44 factory load tested (by Handloader magazine)

Reference: July/Aug 1970 Handloader

Load tested: 38 Spl Winchester 158 gr lead
Factory velocity (6 in test barrel): 1,060 fps
Handloader tests (actual revolver):
4 inch barrel - 924 fps
6 inch barrel - 1,036 fps

Reference: Sept/Oct 1970 Handloader

Pressure tests of Winchester 38 Spl load above - 19,000 psi

The above was a pre +P 38-44 type load. I would had thought a 38-44 was faster but the actual data proved otherwise.

(Thank you to Peter Eick for the data ref Sep 2006)

6 grs Unique in 357 Mag cases with 158 gr lead would be a good duplicate of this 38-44 velocity.

 

[38SPL HV]

38-44 factory load tested (Law Enforcement Handgun Digest)

Reference: Law Enforcement Handgun Digest (1972)

Tested Remington 38 Special Hi-Speed 158 gr lead (Remington ref: 6538):
Revolver - 4 inch HB S&W Model 10
Velocity - 943 fps
Remington catalog fps (6 in test barrel) - 1,090 fps

Tested Winchester 38 Special Super X 150 gr (Winchester ref: W38S4P):
Revolver same as above
Velocity - 974 fps
Winchester catalog fps (6 in test barrel) - 1,060 fps

Yet some more interesting 38-44 type load data points. Probably duplicated by 6.0 grs PP with 158 gr lead (Alliant ref data)...

 

[moosedog]

Great post. Those figures are a lot lower than I would have expected.

 

[DWalt]

Fine, but several questions, possibly unanswerable. First, were older original .38-44 loads used as a reference? (I assume they were). What was the source of the "Factory velocity (6 in test barrel): 1,060 fps"? I think it would have been better if original .38-44 loads from all manufacturers had been tested, not just loads from Winchester.

Second how was "Pressure tests of Winchester 38 Spl load above - 19,000 psi" determined? Did Handloader measure it (and if so, how?) or was it obtained from Winchester? In 1970, pressure testing was more often done using copper crushers than piezoelectric gauges, but the two methods are not very comparable.

Third, how many revolvers were used? And how many shots were fired to get an average MV? If only one revolver in 4" and one in 6" were used, the MV results are suspect. Different revolvers of the same barrel length can produce significantly different MVs using identical loads.

Earlier ammunition catalogs published .38-44 MVs which were generally in the lower 1100 ft/sec neighborhood from either 5" or 6" barrels, but it was never made clear whether these published MVs were obtained from an actual revolver or from some vented test barrel. Much later ammunition catalogs often published MVs which were somewhat less than 1100 ft/sec using vented test barrels. It's unclear whether there was a change made in the ammunition or only in the MV testing method and test barrel.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

I don't like Unique for several reasons. One of those reasons
is that in many 38 spl handloads chronographed with it over
the years I have always experienced large ESs and lower
average velocities than I see listed in manuals and claimed
by others. I don't see these problems with other powders
using the same loading techniques. Makes me wonder if all
handload velocities listed here are actually chronographed.
I've bought my last can of Unique.

The only problem I've ran into with Unique was with target load.Something like 3.2 or 3.4gr under 154gr SWC(NEI 150gr SWC out of WW,plain base)or 148gr.WC will give erratic ignition if care is not taken to elevate the muzzle of the gun before firing.I've worked loads up to 5.4gr and shot it in many .357 light and heavy frames without any sign of pressure.Actually,the cases slipped easily out of all my guns.And accuracy was excellent;I'm tempted to say ''target''accuracy!
I do my load developments in winter;so comes November,I'll increase my loads(at that point,0.1gr at a time)and will inform you of the developments.
Qc

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Someone mentioned that "the loads" powder is gone and cant be duplicated.

I prepared for that. I think I have 8 8 lbs jugs of the stuff stashed around...

He he he!!!!!

 

[jimbo728]

Nobody's mentioned SPEER #8 yet!

Not to be left unmentioned.
Speer#8 Manual
158gr Speer soft point. 6.0gr Unique 968fps 6"bbl
158gr 2" barrel load Speer LSWC 5.5gr Unique. 858fps

Its old data. 1970.
Jim

 

[992B]

For at least 40 years I have used 5.0 grains of Unique with a 158 grain cast bullet as my standard 38 Special load and 5.5 grains of Unique as my 38/44 or +P load in 38 Special. All of my guns are Smiths or Rugers and no problems, damages, or repairs needed due to these loads. The heavier load is for my 38/44's or 357's. the lighter loads are for prewar k frame guns.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

For at least 40 years I have used 5.0 grains of Unique with a 158 grain cast bullet as my standard 38 Special load and 5.5 grains of Unique as my 38/44 or +P load in 38 Special. All of my guns are Smiths or Rugers and no problems, damages, or repairs needed due to these loads. The heavier load is for my 38/44's or 357's. the lighter loads are for prewar k frame guns.

And I don't think that you will damage any of your guns with that load.Unique has changed its composition lately so as to burn more cleanly but the burning rate hasn't changed.I use the same data(my SWC Keith bullet comes out at 154gr lubed)at 5.4gr and am going to proceed this winter with increases of .1 to .2gr increments.I shoot them in my heavy and light frames(N and K) .357.I think that since Unique hasn't changed the burning rate and the guns aren't made any weaker that the good ole times,I'm pretty safe with old data.

To me,a good Magnum load is around 1350FPS(with nominal weight for caliber bullet,be it .357,.41 or .44).A good .38Spl regular pressure load is around 900FPS(I've reached that with a 6'' bbl with previously mentionned bullet and 3.8gr Titegroup).
Next step is to get between about 1100 fps with same bullet and Unique.Lots of fun in perspective!!
Qc

 

[MSR_Gal]

HS-6 as 4756 replacement?

HS-6 looks to be closer to 4756 in burning rate than Unique is. I've seen normal +P data for HS-6. Has anyone here developed full 38/44 HV loads with HS-6?

Also, since full 38/44 loads approach the lower end of .357 Magnum pressures, what is the best small pistol primer for these loads?

 

[DWalt]

Also, since full 38/44 loads approach the lower end of .357 Magnum pressures, what is the best small pistol primer for these loads?

Most people would say small pistol primers are OK. Since I have use Small Rifle primers for all my .38 Special and .357 loads for many years, I'd say use Small Rifle.

 

[rockquarry]

Some recommend a magnum primer with HS-6 in the .38 Special. I've never seen a need, but if you have some, work up a load and try them.

If you have several different standard small pistol primers handy, try them as well and use a chronograph. I'd go with what was most accurate, but often the difference is so small as to be insignificant.

 

[sniper]

For years, my go-to load has been 5.5gr. Unique, 357 brass, CCI or Winchester Small Pistol standard primer, 150-158 Cast SWC, 4" barrel. Chronoed 860 fps. Not .38-44 level, which 6.0 should provide.

 

[Nevada Ed]

With a 158 gr lead bullet;

My M49 38 snub nose can handle 5.0 grs of Unique powder.

My M19-5 with a 38 case could handle 5.5 grs of Unique powder.
However, this K frame did better in accuracy with just 5.0 grs of powder.

I only push lead in my 357, when used as a hunting load, otherwise, I try
to keep them in the 900fps zone, and not doing 1320fps.