.38 HBWC loaded backwards--do they stabilize?

[Ralph G. Briscoe]

I frequently see posts recommending this load for defense. It looked like a great idea to me back in the 70's and I loaded a bunch of 148gr Speer HBWC backwards over 3 gr of Bullseye. I was a bit surprised and disheartened to note at the range that most of them went through the target sideways at 5 yards from my Chief's special. Has anyone come up with a bullet/powder/gun combination that will stabilize these loads or do people keep recommending them because they look scary?

 

[arfmel]

My experience was the same as yours. I never did get my handloads to not tumble. I was using them in a Victory Model. It has been a long time ago, and I don't have any record of what charge I used and what brand bullet. The powder was most likely "Unique", though, because that's what I used at that time. Sorry I'm not more help.

 

[tomuchiron]

that'll work.

I thought they were supposed to tumble. More damage.
I would think the broad side would disperse more energy faster, besides making a bigger hole. It Should be a lot more effective.
They used to say the 223 tumbled, for more damage, but I never had a key hole with one of them.
Mike

 

[Black_Talon]

I also tried this experiment back in the '70's, with many different S&W's. Got nothing but tumbling from every gun, no matter what sort of different loads I tried.

And as far as the "aren't they supposed to tumble" philosophy, I say "first they have to hit the target", something which is by no means a sure thing, even at fairly short ranges with a backwards HBWC. 10" plus groups were the norm, even at 5 or so yards during my experiments.

 

[m657]

Not to high hack here, but there are a couple of issues regarding "keyholing" I would comment upon without claiming any particular degree of correctness in my hypothesis:

1) key holing at 5 yards in a defense snubbie may be advantageous in a 'belly gun'...

2) a few years ago I spent considerable time & effort trying to develop a satisfactory load for a Marlin 45-70. Despite meticulous research and application of proper recipes and assembly protocols, 50 yard accuracy was miserable with cast boolits regardless of a variety of powders, charges and 350-375-405-450 grain cast lead. On the other hand, it was sheer music the sound a 405 grain slug could generate smiting a 1/2" plywood backer and leave a perfectly outlined profile of the slug.

Never resolved that issue, but turning to factory jacketed ammo yield 2" groups at the same range. Buddies tried to convince that not enough velocity to stabilize was somehow responsible, but all of the loads were within published specs.

Not that this solves your question much.

In using 147g DEWC and 148 g WC in a variety of 38 loads & guns, I've never had any do what you describe, regardless of which end was mounted forward....but none of them were HBWC either. If we read up a little more on what Skeeter had to say in more depth, perhaps he discussed this issue.

 

[hawgleg]

I think most people just go back to the drawingboard and try something else.

 

[fredj338]

I made some up back in the late 70s to hunt jackrabbits with. At 900fps, they stabilize fine, accurate to 25yds or so, devistating on vermin. I would think they would have been very shallow penetrators for a SD round.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I wouldn't do it although I do like DEWC bullets at a fairly quick velocity for SD. A 148gr DEWC over 4.0gr W231 will do a good job and you don't have to be too concerned about expansion considering the bullet is already at full caliber diameter.

 

[Ralph G. Briscoe]

Thanks for the replies. I'll be referring "load em backwards" fans to this thread.

 

[pistola]

Recovered bullet,148 gr. HBWC

 

[pete950]

What was it shot into!

 

[Tyrod]

They used to say the 223 tumbled

No, they actually didn't tumble in flight. On early AR-15 and M-16 the rifling twist rate was so slow that the bullet was only marginably stable. As a consequence, as soon as the bullet struck an obstacle (such as clothing), then the bullet stability would become disrupted and key holeing would likely occur. With a 1:14 twist the bullet could actually become unstable in flight in very cold climates.

The effect would be the same but the bullet would, at least, fly straight.

 

[358156hp]

I haven't loaded wadcutters backwards for many years, but mine didn't tumble in either 38 Spl or 32 S&W long. I used Bullseye, and didn't try to make them go really fast because I was told that they would try to swap ends if you pushed them too fast.

 

[Ralph G. Briscoe]

What powder charge were you using? What bullet? Did you use a gas check over the hollow base? Did they consistently stabilize? Very impressive results if consistent.

 

[silentflyer]

I recall shooting some wetphone books with them, didn't penatrate all that far, but the wet book always took a tumble and the rounds opened up to about the size of a quarter...never shot anything else with them, but in close at night....well I wouldn't want to be on the recieving end..

 

[pistola]

Backwards HBWC

Hornady 148 gr. HBWC,no gas check.Powder was Unique,3.5 gr.
The recovered bullet was fired at 10 yards into a 55 gal. burn barrel penetrating the near side and almost going through the far side,
some bullets breaking the metal but not exiting.A S&W Model 640
.38 Spl. 1 7/8" bbl. was the revolver used.

 

[roundgunner]

I played with them quite a bit in the 70s. Uncle Sams 45s were all over the place but my only personal handgun was a Model 10.

I kept the data and will look it up but I know I used a light charge of Bullseye and Reddot. If you pushed them to fast they would turn inside out and the bottom would push thru the top and seperate.

I shot them into water but I’m pretty sure shooting into water is about as close to flesh as you can get for free, and I was active duty poor.

My model 10 was 4” and tumbling was not a issue for that but I kept them below +P speeds.

 

[LouisianaJoe]

Years ago I loaded some in a .357 magnum rather hot.

I shot a possum in the butt with a 6" Model 19 and it blew the bottom half of its abdomen off. The amazing thing was that it still bared its teeth at me for a minute before it died.

I fired one of them into a clay bank and it expanded to about the size of a quarter.

I called it my atrocity load.

 

[GyMac]

I had some old Speer HBWC's laying around from 20 some years ago. Last year I loaded a few up backward with a moderate load of Win 231 and fired them into some wet catalogs. They flattened out like a nickel. I tried a few at 15 yards and they seemed pretty decent, no tumbling at all. I was just giving them a try, I rely on the FBI load for SD.

 

[MMA10mm]

I did this back in the day as well. I found that loading them so about 1/4" of the bullet protruded from the case helped center them in the chamber throat and they flew better. I also tried loading them hotter and got leading which then screwed up the accuracy. I finally decided to load an upside-down gas-check under the upside-down HBWC and that allowed me to go up to a little hotter load successfully. Finally had a chance to try the "perfected" UDHBWC and found that it over-expanded, kind-of like the skirt-blow-off issue in reverse. As the bullet expanded at the higher velocity the thin part of the skirt (now the mouth of the upside-down bullet) would peel off and shatter and not penetrate, leaving a 100gr or so short WC shaped fragment to do the rest. Overall penetration was better than Glaser Safety Slugs, but a lot worse than a soft-cast HP, which is what I prefer now.