.38 HBWCs, Seating/crimping at same time detrimental to accuracy?

[Glennp]

Hey,
Just got a turret press to speed things up. I used to seperate seating and crimping but now I'de like to consolidate into one step. I set up my lee seat/crimp die and have a few questions.

Heres what im loading:
Speer 148 HBWCs in starline brass seated flush. RCBS cowboy 358 expander, lee everything else.

Anyways, when the last tiny bit of the process leaves a little bit of the top of the bullet scraped. Is this okay? Im assuming it is impossible for it to crimp while seating and not do that but i'm not sure. Im left with a nice crimp, no bulged brass. The only way to tell that it scrapes during crimp is because it leaved a teeny bit on top of the bullet when done, and is only very evident when a bullets pulled (top bit is shiney).

Am I getting worked up over nothing? I try for top accuracy, dont want to screw anything up here.

Thanks!

 

[Dale53]

I MUCH prefer to seat with one die and crimp with another. Lee's factory crimp die works quite well for the "4th" die.

I have a couple of Dillon 550B's and use four dies with everything. I also have a Lee Classic Cast Turret (with four holes) for small lots and use the four die set (with separate seating and crimping dies) with that set up, also.

With many bullet designs, you can't really avoid shaving lead - that doesn't help accuracy AT ALL!

Dale53

 

[Jellybean]

The keys to accuracy are precision and consistancy. As long as you can do this while seating and crimping in one step you're good to go. The scraping you mentioned could be a problem though, depending on what is causing it. It is probably due to the poor fit of the generic Lee seating stem to the bullet nose, but as long as the bullet is aligned correctly in the end it shouldn't hurt.

The main reason folks seat and crimp in two steps is for reliability. Crimping while the bullet is being seated tends to bulge the case just enough to prevent it from slipping into the chamber easily. Sometimes it won't fit at all.

 

[OKFC05]

HBWC need little crimp.
Should be no problem doing both seating and crimping if your loading gear does not have a problem. What seating punch are you using? Are you crimping too much?

 

[Kirmdog]

Most Bullseye competitors I shoot with and just about all of the guys shooting at Camp Perry seat and crimp at a separate station.

While most of us wouldn't shoot good enough to see a difference those that are High Master Bullseye shooters would. Why not do the crimping at separate stations and give yourself every chance possible to shoot the most accurate ammo you can make?

Kirmdog

 

[Cary]

HBWC need little crimp.
Should be no problem doing both seating and crimping if your loading gear does not have a problem. What seating punch are you using? Are you crimping too much?

As mentioned by OKFC05 your problem may be caused by the nose punch in the seating die. Lee has made me several custom nose punches for my seating dies as I experienced marring on some of the bullets I have used. It may affect accuracy and bullet seating depth may not be consistent as well. I used to seat and crimp in one step as well but soon moved into doing each in a separate step. It easier for me to fine tune the bullet seating and crimping if you do these steps with separate dies. Contact Lee if you are interested in a different nose punch for your seating die.
Cary

 

[Duffy]

A very light crimp will give you the best group.....
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[PPCSHOOTER]

I HAVE FOUND THAT IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. SEAT AND CRIMP IN DIFFERENT STEPS FOR MAX ACCURACY. JP

 

[Jellybean]

As others have stated a light crimp works best. Probably because most people don't bother with trimming their pistol brass. Using a heavier crimp with odd sized cases will put more tension on some and less on others. Many of the bullseye shooters I knew went to a taper crimp because of this.

 

[Glennp]

Thanks guys.
I am using a light crimp and to clarify, when I said top of bullet scrapes i ment top of the outside of the bullet. On the side.

 

[TSQUARED]

Glennp,
If you attempt to seat and crimp in the same operation you will most likely get some shaved lead. I always seat and crimp in separate operations.

 

[cjw3]

I prefer to do the operations separately. I also use only taper crimps with WC bullets.

 

[chriske]

If you're trying for TOP accuracy always seat and crimp seperately, with any bullet in any load.

 

[oldracer]

I just started using a Lee Loadmaster and that setup uses a seating die and then a separate crimp/sizing die. I seat the bullets so just a bit of the wadcutter is above the case and crimp it with just a slight amount of roll over. The used 357 cases I have all tended to get a very slight swell at the bottom the bullet and the sizer die smooths that out although you can still see it. I was concerned about all that but the first batches I loaded ended up being as accurate as some professionally loaded wadcutters so I am happy.

 

[Jeff423]

It would be interesting to load some both ways. Then shoot them with a good pistol from a Ransom rest and see if there was any difference.
I do it in two steps because I have 5 stations in my press. On the rare occasions when I load on a single stage press I do it in one step. I can't tell any difference.

Jeff

 

[Dale53]

Glennp;
The reason the case scrapes lead off the top, side of the bullet when using one die: You are trying to crimp the mouth of the case while the bullet is still seating. It is a losing proposition. Elmer Keith designed his famous SWC bullets with a long, sloping crimp groove to minimize this problem because there were NO separate crimp dies available. Heck, in those days we tried to use TWO die sets. Then 3 die sets became available and then the 4th die was added and things are definitely better with 4 dies. You don't need to flare as much, case life is increased, and you get NO lead shaving - let me repeat NO lead shaving...

Some bullet designs (like most HB wadcutters) are really intended to be seated first THEN crimped.

FWIW
Dale53

 

[tdan]

As other posters have mentioned, crimping in a separate step is proper. I would also make a couple of extra suggestions:

You might consider using a seating plug that is tailored for your bullet. I currently shoot Zero 148 gr. HBWC's in a 14-4 and have a custom stem that contacts only the center of the lead. No contact with the outside "cutting" surface. You will find that most HBWC's are a rather soft swaged lead bullet. You may find that your shaved lead is caused by your seating plug mashing down on the outside edge of your bullet, and the crimping process is simply wiping off the excess. I use a Redding taper crimp die to finish my loads off. Crimp at the case mouth is at .368. You may need a bit more crimp if you are shooting these rounds in a Model 52, but I've never had any issues with these rounds in my revolver. No need to overcrimp these low velocity paper-punching loads that are routinely loaded with a small charge of fast burning powder.............Just my 2 cents!

 

[tc scout]

Seating Depth

IMO you are seating too deep. I have shot hundreds of Berry's HBWC seated to 1.180 COL with a mild crimp useing a Lee factory crimp die.

That puts the crimp just where the bullet edge starts to round off.
Your seating depth could explain why you are shaving the bullet.
JMO, but it works great for me.