38 S&W load data needed

[tlay]

I have a few older smiths that are 38S&W. I don't have any .361 bullets but I do have some 148gr. HBWC bullets from Hornady. They are sized to .358. If I use these bullets how deep should they be? What is the OAL? I believe you can't put them in as far as a 38 special.
The powders I have are w231, HP38, Bullseye, Titegroup, Unique, and True Blue. What amount of grains should I use for this powder and bullet combo? Thanks.
I should have mentioned the older smiths are top breaks.

 

[Jellybean]

It is not a good idea to shoot smokeless loads in old top breaks, in fact the introduction of smokeless powder is the main reason gunmakers quit using the design and even modern top breaks are not chambered in "high pressure" chambering.

As far as loading HBWC's in .38S&W, you can load them to any depth you want, as long as they will chamber, but it's a good idea to not seat them deep enough to contact the web area of the case.

 

[RKCarl]

I have good success with 2.8 to 3 gr. of Bullseye with the Hornady 148gr HBWC. This is a very mild target load, very accurate out to 50 yards. Seat the bullet flush with the brass rim and finish with a slight roll crimp.

 

[rwsmith]

If....

If they are a strong make and in good shape you just have to make sure that the latch works well. The latches on some guns didn't hold up to much use due to quick wearing.

All that aside, I've shot top breaks but I'd take it real easy with the loads. Who needs a hot S&W load, anyway?

Speer #14 gives for their .358, 158 gr soft swaged bullets:

2.3 to 2.6 gr of 231

2.2 to 2.4 of Bullseye

2.8 to 3.1 of Unique

Since I'm out of my house this is the only manual I have but I would surely check the Lyman data.

Neither of the gunpowder sites had data for the .38 S&W

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

In the 1980's used to load 148 gr. Hydro-shok hollow based, hollow point wad cutters in Winchester brass, CCI small pistol primer, 2.3 gr. of WW 231. The bullet was seated out to normal COAL. These gave better than factory ammo accuracy in the 7 or 8, H&R and Iver Johnson top break revolvers I had in the family collection. Never tried them as a real SD round, but had good results on small game and good bullet performance when tested on an (already dead) dog of about 75 pounds. Those bullets haven't been available since Federal bought Hydro-shok and I only have 57 left, so I don't waste them on experiments any more! Ivan

 

[pinto]

I like your idea of loading a hollowbase wadcutter.
It should bump up easily to fill the barrel.
Small charge of fast powder does the trick.
Start real low and work up.
That's such a small case that I wouldn't seat the bullet flush as is done with 38 Specials.
That could really spike pressure, especially using the powder charges specified for this bullet in the longer Special case.
Would likely seat it out to the "normal" 38 S&W cartridge length.
I load for an old .41 Long Colt, and the same trick works there.

 

[tlay]

That is what I was thinking. If I seat the bullet all the way in as you would normally with a wadcutter, there is not much room left. I am afraid of high pressures. Does anyone have any fps data for a wadcutter? I think that I will start at 1.8grs of bullseye or 2grs of HP38. I will seat the bullet out at normal 38S&W lengths for a few rounds and check the speed. If it is low I will shorten the OAL until I get to 700fps. Thanks for the replies.

 

[M1A]

I am working loads now for my Webley Mark III .38 S&W. Remington Target 146gr works very well. They measure .357 at the top of the case. .361 reloaded with 2.2gr W231 is very poor in my pistol. The bullets are too big. After finding this out for myself, I have read the same numerous times on forums.
Bullets are available from Matt's bullets and Missouri Bullets that measure .358 & .359, and used for .38 Special. I am loading them now.
Keep in mind my barrel is not your barrel.
I will be posting my results here when I'm finished.
Check out M.D. Smith's Reloading Pages for .38 S&W loads. He shows loading for top breaks.

 

[reddog81]

Any .358 HBWC should work. I usually use Speer but Hornady is probably just as good. I use loads in the range of 2.0 to 2.3 for Bullseye in break tops. If I know I 'm going to be shooting a hand ejector I have gone higher, but I see no point in putting the extra wear on 100+ year old guns.
For the seating depth I would experiment and see how long you can make the rounds and have them function in all your guns. I usually leave 1/8 to 1/4 of inch of bullet exposed.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

A 146 gr. bullet seated to the normal overall length will have the same muzzle velocity regardless of bullet shape (+/- 15 fps). 2.2 gr. HP38/WW 231 is 595 fps and 2.5 gr. is 630 fps on a 4" barrel (per Hodgdon manual #24 from 1983). Hodgdon.Com has other powders and maybe bullet weights (but 146 is the traditional bullet weight for 38 S&W). The cartridge was designed in the Black Powder era, you might like the performance with B.P. Trail Boss has been great in several B.P. cartridges I've loaded it for, just haven't done this one yet. Ivan

 

[glowe]

I have done a lot of reloading of 38 S&W to find the most accurate load for my revolvers. The powders I have tried range from BP to BP substitutes, to Unique, 700X, Trail Boss, and Red Dot. I have also tried .357 to .361 lead bullets, including WC, RN, and SWC.

Factory loads of today run around 600 fps. Original vintage BP loads I have tested ran nearly 750 fps. The slowest powder out there is Trail Boss, 3 grains, and I averaged only 436 fps. You might get a little more in the case, but a 145 grain bullet takes up a lot of space. The fastest I have reloaded was 2.3 grains of 700X yielding 722 fps.

I have done most of my accuracy testing using a benched 38 DA with 6" barrel. Have shot 125, 140, 145 grain RN. I was not excited about .357-.358" bullets so bought a .361 RN mould and that improved my accuracy. A 25 yard target gave 7" pattern with .357 bullets, while the .361 gave me 4". I have not found any better results with WC or SWC bullets, but my guess would be the hollow base WC .357 bullets would be the next best alternative to .361.

So, my best load to date is 2.1 grains of 700X under a 145 grain soft lead .361" RN bullet running at 700 fps. I might add that Missouri Bullets sells a great .361" RN lead for 38 S&W for those who do not cast. Before I found a mould, I used them with great results.

 

[tlay]

Glowe, when you used the .357 WC bullet how far did you seat them? This is my main concern about this bullet.

 

[glowe]

Glowe, when you used the .357 WC bullet how far did you seat them? This is my main concern about this bullet.

As long as the maximum OAL is under 1.18", you should be OK with a .357" WC or SWC. The mouth of my 38 S&W cylinders average .358", so the .357 WC will slide right into the cylinder and past the step. I usually end up seating them about .3" deep, with about the same volume left inside the case as with standard RN bullets.

As I said, I was not impressed with standard WC of SWC in 38 S&W and think part of the problem is bullet size. I also was cautious with powder volume, since the 158 WC bullet is pretty heavy for the 38 top breaks and so I kept velocities low. Others claim good accuracy with .357" bullets, so only experimentation with your revolvers will tell the tale.

 

[M1A]

Since I have pounds of Titegroup and no info on that powder for the .38 S&W, I worked up my own. Missouri Bullet .358 in 140gr & 158gr. Made 6 of each at 1.8gr and 2.0gr Titegroup. The pics are the 2.0gr & SA.
My best result is with Remington 146gr Match, but with a bit more tweeking I'll get there.
Fired in my Webley Mark III. No chronograph, but felt recoil was still a pop, pop.
140gr & 158gr at 10yds.

 

[M1A]

Today I achieved a load for MY Webley Mark III .38 S&W. Missouri Bullet 158gr Match .358 with 2.0gr Titegroup or 2.3gr W231. Went thru .361, .357, & .359.