38 S&W load devopment Pt. 1

[ArchAngelCD]

My favorite 38 S&W load is 2.5gr W231 under a 160gr .360" LRNFP bullet. I do load up some 200gr bullets once and a while just because I like to replicate the original British 38/200 load to shoot in my Enfield No2. Herco, Universal and Unique work well with the 200gr bullets.

 

[garra]

I have an OAL question. I just received my dies and bullets from Stonewall Bullets and was putting together my 1st batch. According to the 48th Lyman edition I should have an OAL of 1.15 when using a 160 gr bullet. The bullets I odered from Stonewall are RNFP @ 158 GN, .360 diameter. I order to hit the crimp groove I have to use an OAL of 1.080 or a difference of .070. The starting powder for this load is Unique, 3.2 gns.

How critical is this OAL and is there any type of formula to determine the increase in pressure for a reduction of OAL and how would it equate to a reduction in the amount of powder.

 

[walnutred]

How critical is this OAL and is there any type of formula to determine the increase in pressure for a reduction of OAL and how would it equate to a reduction in the amount of powder.

Of equal, if not more importance, when changing bullet weights is case free space. Probably not the right term but I don't know what else to call it. That is the distance between the base of the bullet as loaded in the case and the bottom of the interior case. I'm sure you can see how a bullet base seated deeper in the case will increase pressure. So you need to pay attention to how much bullet is seated inside the case as is seated outside.

 

[sjmjax]

I like shooting the .38 S&W cartridge. Haven't done extensive experimentation with different powder & bullet combinations but have been very pleased with these two.

I used generic cast bullets at .358 diameter.

158g RNL or SWC w/ 3.0 grains Unique for 725fps.
158g RNL or SWC w/ 2.9 grains Winchester 231 for 750fps.

Very accurate in both Colt Police Positive & S&W 33-1

 

[rond]

A flat nose bullet is shorter than a round nose bullet so the OAL of a flat nose bullet is shorter than a round nose bullet, if the crimp groove is the same.

 

[garra]

I am afraid the crimp groove isn't the same. I took apart some Magtek RN ammo and made some comparisons. Stock ammo had 2.5 gns of powder, an OAL of 1.17, with .244 from the base of the bullet to the crimp grove. New bullet has .362 from the base to the crimp grove. It appears I am stuck with the long over-all length and hitting the crimp grove is not a good idea as I have added another .118 of depth to the combustion cavity. I believe that even with the differences I have described the only thing I can do is back off on the powder to 20% less of the starting point of 3.2 gns and hopefully not damage anything.
Now I have an excuse to buy a chronograph.

 

[H Richard]

This is exactly the problem I encountered. Crimping into the crimp groove placed the bullet much deeper into the case, and decreased the powder cavity space. This increases the pressure built up on firing, and caused me very "sticky" extraction in a .38 Regulation Police using 3.1 gr 231. I only fired one cylinder full of it, and need to pull the rest and reload considerably lower. About a 25% reduction would be right at 2.5 gr. Are you thinking this is still too heavy a load? I was also using bullets from Stone Wall, the 158 gr RNFP sized .360. The crimp goove I measured .351 from the base.

 

[garra]

I think the load using 231 is too heavy for the deep crimping. If you look at the starting Grs between Unique and 231 for a 160 grain bullet it is 3.2 for Unique vs 1.5 for the 231.
I made some comparisions another way when compared to factory ammo. The combustion cavity for stock ammo is .366 ( inside case depth .610 minus bullet seating to crimp .244) For the new Stonewall bullets this figure is .610-.361 = cc of 249 or 68% of the factory ammo. So this would lead me to believe that I would have to start at a point that represents a similiar reduction of powder which would be 2.2 grs of Unique. Rather than do that I am increasing the OAL length of the cartridge to 1.15, this will give me a new cc of .343 or 92% which will give me a starting point of 3.0 gr of Unique. Anyway you get the idea of what I am trying to do. Just for grins I compared the Stonewall bullets to Laser cast for a 38 and the crimp groves were in the same spot. Oh as an FYI, according the Magtek site stock ammo chronys @ 686 FPS. Bought a Chrony yesterday at Cabelas.

 

[garra]

Here is the latest on my load developement. I loaded 25 bullets all with 3.2 gns of Unique, measured on a digital scale, all shooting a Stonewall 158 Gn RNFP sized to .360. I broke them into 5 groups with different OALs, here are the results:

OAL 1.15, AVG 733.6 highest in group 758 fps
OAL 1.12, AVG 746.75 highest in group 808 fps
OAL 1.11, AVG 766.8 highest in group 815 fps (highest of all groups)
OAL 1.09, AVG 764.75 highest in group 800 fps
OAL 1.08, AVG 769.0 highest in group 803 fps ( this OAL hit cannelure)

My next try is reducing the powder to 3.0 gns with an OAL of 1.08. Even though the ranges don't seem too excessive I had the same low velocity on 1.15 and 1.08 of 707fps.

This process is interesting, I had to rig up a target holder that slid into the base of the Chrony so I had something to shoot at,and keep me in the beams, pasted a small 3" taget on to the paper backing, worked really slick, the entire 1 1/2" center is gone.

 

[walnutred]

I'm impressed that you can push a 258 gn bullet 800 fps out of a 38 S&W. I'm a little frightened of the thought also, to be honest with you. ;D

 

[LouisianaMan]

Garra,
I'm sure you mean 158g instead of 258g, right?

I've got my 32-1 and 33/33-1 collection together now, and I've got the following loads in progress:

1. 161g (nominal wt. 158) Lee LSWC at about 710fps with 3.0g Win231. The bullet is seated out to a COL of 1.155", i.e. in about the 2nd tumble-lube groove from the top.

2. 198g Lee group buy 358430, 639 fps with 2.7g Win 231, COL 1.270".

3. 215g RCBS 35-200, 2.5g starting load, COL 1.275". This load will be chrono'ed tomorrow & I'll report. I've got penetration results on the first two on other forums, and will summarize here tomorrow as well.

Photos show (L-R): .38 S&W 161g LSWC; 358430 LRN 198g; 35-200 LFP 215g; .38 SPL 193g 358430. (All wts. as-cast, rather than nominal.) Bullets are tumble-lubed and arrayed above respective loaded cartridges, with crimp locations aligned to facilitate comparison. Guns are Police Positive Special and Mod. 33-1.

 

[LouisianaMan]

.38 S&W range report & photos

RECOIL TESTS (1st try) and 215g LFN penetration test:

I tried the 198g LRN in .38SPL with 3.0g Win231, seated in crimp groove. Average vel 574.6, so I'll probably need to try a 3.2g load to get velocities about the same as my .38S&W/200 load.

Apparent recoil in the Colt Police Positive Special, cal. .38SPL, was approximately the same--perhaps a bit stronger--than the .38S&W/200 fired from a S&W Mod. 33-1. Both barrels are 4".

Free recoil in the Colt .38SPL: 3 ft-lbs, 12 fps. In the S&W .38S&W: 4 ft-lbs., 14 fps. In other words, the .38SPL should have felt like it kicked less than the .38S&W.

In all likelihood, the somewhat stronger felt recoil of the .38SPL was a function of two things: the roundness of the Colt grip isn't as stable for me as the S&W grip, and I was in an extreme prone position as I fired over my chronograph.

Will post further recoil comparisons after I up the .38SPL/200 load to about 630fps, and fire it slow and rapid fire alongside the Smith .38S&W/200.

PENETRATION: Although no milk jugs were injured in conducting the experiments above, 6 paid the ultimate price when I test fired one of the .38S&W/215g RCBS 35-200 cast from 50-50 WW-Pb + tin. An 8-shot string chrono'ed as follows:
LO 596.4, HI 668.4, AVG 622.8, ES 72.03, SD 21.44. Excepting the HI and LO shots, the other six were from 605 - 627 fps.

The bullet tracked STRAIGHT through 6 jugs and embedded itself into the stop board 2x12, which was backed by other jugs. Clearly, the flat nose provides straight-on penetration, rather than the curving & apparent tumbling of the 200g LRN. Note that it is deeper in the stop board after 6 jugs than the 158g after 5 jugs.

Photos below show embedded bullets (2 x 161g LSWCs, 1 x 215g LFN); revolvers and 50' targets--probably the first time these two minty guns were ever fired. POI was +7". The very clean LRN bullet in the photo of the 4" gun was found next to my line of jugs--it was one of those previously shot thru the jugs and originally not recovered.

7 of my 8 .38S&W revolvers are shown; #8 is in active service w/daughter. . .

 

[Kaumheimer]

I've been following this thread with great interest because I really enjoy the .38 cartridge and find the 148 wadcutter incredibly accurate at 25 yards in my 4"/6" M19, 4" M15, and 5" M27.

However, my 5" 686 does not do well with the 3.1 gn 231 load at all.

Thus I'm trying to develop a load either with 148 gn wadcutters or a 158 gn SWC that would be accurate in this gun.

To date, I haven't had much luck with Accurate #5 or 231 in experimenting with 158 loads.

OK, so here's the deal. I noted that some of the guys in this thread have recommended loads of as little as 2.9 or 3.0 gn of 231 for the 158 SWC. I find this very intriguing. I'm going to try this.

However...I note that Speer's minimum load for a 158 SWC starts at 3.8 for 231.

Is there a safety issue by lowering the load to such a degree, perhaps risking a squib?

Mahalo

 

[LouisianaMan]

Kaumheimer, we're discussing .38 S&W, not .38 S&W Special. . .except for a few references to the latter. The former is shorter & slightly "fatter." Loads like 2.7g Win231 are for this round, not your .38SPLs.

I've loaded .38 SPECIAL 158g LSWC with 3.5g Win231 for an intentionally very mild load in the low 600s vel. I don't know how far down one can go before squibs are a threat, but very mild loads can be dirty b/c they're not efficient combinations of bullet-powder.

If you shoot great groups with several revolvers using your standard load, but lousy groups with the other revolver, you may want to check whether its groove diameter is larger than its chamber throats. If the throats swage a bullet down to sub-groove diameter, that's a major problem for accuracy (and leading). It can be fixed by reaming out the throats. Have you ever slugged barrel & throats?

 

[Kaumheimer]

LouisianaMan...Appreciate your comments on both counts. No, I haven't slugged barrel & throats. The bore seems pretty clean but I will double check and talk to a smith.

mahalo

 

[LouisianaMan]

Kaumheimer--If you know how to slug already, then ignore this. Otherwise, this may help.

Grab some sinkers--the kind with the hole in the middle--at the local hardware store. Lightly oil sinker & revolver barrel, then hammer sinker(start it) into the muzzle. Then, place an old brass cartridge case or something similar on top of the sinker & hammer the case, to avoid scratching the gun. After it's well seated, then take a brass or steel (careful!) rod of appropriate size & hammer the sinker through. For .38 cal, I've used 1/3" sinkers. They're tight, and after I seat the slug in the barrel, a ring of lead comes off since it's too much stuff to cram down a barrel

Good luck!

 

[arizonaguide]

I was turned onto this GREAT thread/forum from a friend who was discussing the .38/200 round with me. I had developed this interest when I was trying to find out if there were any "factory" .38special/200gr rounds available (for my 442 jframe). The only .38/200 stuff either of us had heard of was the .38S&W/200.

NOW, after reading this thread (and joining this forum) I have the 38S&W bug...and will be looking at the next gunshow.

Here, I'm going along minding my own business, planing on getting another Jframe (.357) to compliment my 442 in .38 special(that I LOVE),.....and NOW you guys have planted the thought that I have to also find a good old .38S&W.
Next I'll be buying a damn reloader for all the different .38's...worrying about powder, etc.

Thanks folks..and good to be here. GREAT thread (and forum).


quick side question: any recomendations for a first .38S&W shooter? Good jframe sized shooter ideas..not tooo expensive? It will be a used fun gun/maybe wife carry.
PM me if ya don't want to clutter up this thread. Thanks.

 

[LouisianaMan]

Arizona,

Yes, something about .38s and 200g bullets is addictive for some of us

I tried 'em in .38 SPL for the first time about 18 mos. ago or so, and was stunned at the power you could feel when you fired relatively hot ones, while the "push" recoil remained comfortable to handle. When I saw target effects, I was floored. Man, a 200g LSWC-K at 700fps or so will smash a hole straight through anything I will ever need to shoot! When I learned that a .38 S&W can do about the same vel, it was an eye-opener that turned this caliber from a red-headed stepchild to a real option for me.

Will PM some links to what I've posted elsewhere, as well as how I put together my collection.

Yep, just when your addiction was getting under control, you happen onto us . . . !

 

[arizonaguide]

Exactly. Thanks for the info/kinks, Louisiana!

A wealth of information. I think I may sacrifice Golf for the .38S&W...this may be more fun. The .38sp was always for "utility"...but this could be a blast.
GREAT forum here.

 

[LouisianaMan]

March updates on .38/200 testing

200g flat-nose bullets in .38 S&W--penetration testing 7 MAR 10

I used a die made by "BUCKSHOT" on Cast Boolits to flatten the noses of my 192g wheelweight 358430s, giving them a meplat approx. .275 in diameter, while reducing the LRN profile to something resembling a LWC without the sharp shoulder. Since the flattening process caused a bit of swelling, I ran them thru a 361 sizer to ensure a fit in my guns. I also reduced the charge from 2.7g Win231 to 2.6g, since diameter might have increased from as-cast .360 to .361. COL was reduced from 1.270 to 1.205" due to the bumping process; bullet seating depth was not altered from my earlier tests.

CHRONO RESULTS (10 shots, 4" bb. Mod. 33-1): LO 608.8 HI 643.0 AVG 629.8 ES 34.28 SD 9.43

PENETRATION RESULTS @ est. 10' vs. water-filled milk jugs:
1. 4" bbl, Mod. 33-1. Shot chrono'ed at 604.5fps. Bullet penetrated all 6 jugs in essentially straight line, barely exiting 6th jug, denting a stop board about 1/4" deep, then falling back into the jug (now very clean). I had placed cardboard between each jug, to see whether evidence of bullet tumbling existed. Neither the holes in the cardboard nor the holes in the jugs evidenced tumbling. Since the velocity was actually lower than the chronographed LRN 198g in my earlier testing, the LFP profile seems to account for increased penetration & straighter flight path vs. the LRN version of this bullet.

2. 2" bbl, S&W Mod. 32-1. This shot screamed over the chrono at 575.0 fps, penetrating in a straight line into the 6th jug, but failing to exit. This bullet was also recovered in a very clean condition No evidence of tumbling.

3. Both recovered bullets miked at .360 and evidenced no weight loss or deformation.

ACCURACY RESULTS: 50' off sandbags, 2 1/2" group 10 rds, POI +5", L 1 1/2".

ADDITIONAL ANALYSIS:
1. Penetration in LFP profile is markedly deeper & straighter than LRN profile of same bullet, despite lower velocity of the shot. The bullet hole is clearly larger and rounder in both paper target and mik jug than the LRN; larger wound channel and greater tissue damage are therefore likely. If any benefit obtains when the bullet tumbles in LRN form, however, this would be lost in LFP form.

2. 192g LFP penetration is slightly less than 161g LSWC and 215g LFP (35-200). The meplat and bullet hole sizes of the 192g LFP and 161g LSWC are very similar; both are larger than the LRN, which is in turn larger than the 215g LFP.

Next tests are with a Lyman Ideal 360271 mold, nominally 150g, which casts 50-50 in WW-Pb + tin at .364+ and 157g lubed.

Cartridge photos below are (L-R):

1. 215g LFP (RCBS 35-200). This is a .35 Remington fifle bullet. Loaded in .38 S&W, it resembles the British 178g FMJ in shape, and the tumble-lube almost makes it look jacketed.

2. 358430 "bumped" from LRN to LFP

3. 358430 in original LRN

4. 161g LSWC (Lee 358-158-SWC-TL)