.38 snubnose: Hornady FTX -or- Remmy's "FBI" load?

[Ramikrav]

Hi all-

I have 2 choices right now, the hornady FTX 110 +p Critical Defense or the Remington LSWCHP 158gr +p FBI load.

This is for a charter arms undercover, which serves as a BUG to my Rami, but is also carried quite often as primary.

Which would you choose and why?

 

[Hapworth]

Hornady FTX; built for snub noses, gets good results in gel tests. If I was intent on carrying an FBI load, I'd opt for Buffalo Bore's version; I don't think the big three (Remington, Winchester and Federal) are making quality versions any longer.

 

[bmcgilvray]

My .38s, whether 2-inch or 4-inch, that are carried for personal defense are loaded with 158 grain +P "FBI loads" or else with 158 grain lead SWC handloaded equivalents.

I'm no "velocity-over-all-other-considerations" fan and don't even believe in the marvels of bullet expansion to the extent that it is hashed out on firearms forums these days. I like bullet weight. I've only chronograph tested a few from the crop of lighter-bullet "so-called +P" factory loads having jacketed bullets. The ones I tested were dish-water and I suspect that most of the rest are the same way.

Bullet jackets exist in .38 Special factory self-defense loads only because the buying public expects to see bullet jackets on ammunition they purchase for self-defense and not because they add anything truly worthwhile.

Bullet jackets sure do avoid the potential for leading if that is important to a person.

Leave the light-weight bullets for lesser cartridges like the .380 and 9mm and "throw heavy lead" when using the .38 Special revolver for self-defense.

It is certain that some will disagree with this post so read below for different points of view.

 

[BlackTalonJHP]

^What Brian said. It should shoot more to POA than the 110gr also. I would make sure your Remington loads are crimped well and have no bullet pull. Some of the Remington I've shot lately hasn't had the best QC.

 

[bmcgilvray]

Thanks, BlackTalonJHP, for presenting the POA advantage of shooting 158 grain bullets, whether they are +P or standard velocity. With fixed sight Smith & Wesson revolvers I've noticed no more than an inch difference between the two at 12-15 yards.

The light bullets shoot low, sometimes 4-6 inches low at 12-15 yards which is not "minute-of-varmint-head" for me. I do use my fixed-sight .38 Special revolvers in the field too.

 

[Ramikrav]

Thank you all ,for the responses so far. I GREATLY appreciate experienced opinions to take into consideration.

I have the "high terminal performance" boxed Remington load. Are these having issues with quality that I need to be aware of?

I've seen so many differing results from differing tests that quite frankly, I'm terribly confused.

One thing I've been looking for, are actual accounts of the "FBI load" being used, but haven't found any in any of my searches.

I tend to agree with bullet weight and realize that sectional density is a must, but somewhat disagree that modern designed JHPs do not offer much better performance then previous designs.

why didnt hornady make the crit. def. in a 158gr load?

 

[Damol]

In a 38 I like heavy over lite (In beer also) bullets.
In my 38s I have Underwood 158gr LSWCHPGC +Ps.
The lead is pretty soft and when I touch one off I know
it feels good. I have these in both of my M-10s.

 

[Ramikrav]

Thanks, BlackTalonJHP, for presenting the POA advantage of shooting 158 grain bullets, whether they are +P or standard velocity. With fixed sight Smith & Wesson revolvers I've noticed no more than an inch difference between the two at 12-15 yards.

The light bullets shoot low, sometimes 4-6 inches low at 12-15 yards which is not "minute-of-varmint-head" for me. I do use my fixed-sight .38 Special revolvers in the field too.

Understood as per the fixed sight being designed for the "standard" 158gr .38 special load. the charter certainly doesnt have adjustable or even replaceable sights lol.

This weapon is primarily for self defense, and I can't imagine being lawful taking shots at people with it much past 10 yards lol.

The advantages as I see them with the Hornady is lower recoil, lower flash, and perhaps better quality, as well as a bullet design that I've seen in tests seems to expand more often then not.
Problem is, is that it -is- lightweight for caliber and seems to lack in penetration, while the 158 grain FBI load doesnt.

The advantages for the FBI load is that its been around awhile and most reports I've read from seasoned pros seems to indicate an excellent street rep for stopping dangerous people, but its always alluded to, never have I found actual details.
In tests it expands better, but seemingly less reliably depending on the conditions of the test, then the newer stuff. It also has better penetration, even when fully expanded, then the hornady.

I do prefer bigger, heavier bullets tho.

Physics cannot be argued with- more mass equals more retained energy over the course of a terminal event, resulting in greater wounding capacity via more penetration.

Yet, I'm still on the fence between these loads.

 

[Ramikrav]

In a 38 I like heavy over lite (In beer also) bullets.
In my 38s I have Underwood 158gr LSWCHPGC +Ps.
The lead is pretty soft and when I touch one off I know
it feels good. I have these in both of my M-10s.

I drink a black and tan or darker

Recoil isn't too much of an issue with me.

What I think will push me one side or the other would be actual reports of use against violent felons of the loads above. the hornady might be too new on the market, but anyone with any input as to the street effectiveness of the FBI load would be welcome for sure.

Anyone have any actual experience they wish to share?

 

[ContinentalOp]

Not knowing anything about the FTX load I would probably choose the Remington FBI load if there were no other options available. I prefer medium-to-heavy bullet weights for self-defense.

My first choice in a snub self-defense load is Speer's 135gr Short-Barrel Gold Dot +P. Everything I've read said it performs well in gel tests as well as actual shootings. I think both Chicago PD and NYPD were satisfied with their performance in actual shootings.

But I know it can be hard to get, especially in the more economical 50-round boxes.

If I couldn't get the SB-GD, I'd probably get some version of the FBI load, preferably the Buffalo Bore standard pressure version (it's the same velocity as the older FBI +P loads...I've read about a few tests of recently made versions by the major manufacturers that showed they had noticeably lower-than-advertised velocities). I don't have any direct knowledge of the FBI load's effectiveness, but everything I've read said that it worked well in actual shootings. I know it was the standard issue for not only the FBI, but also Chicago PD and St. Louis PD, IIRC.

Having said all that, the most important thing is how well you can shoot it. If you perform better with FTX than the FBI loads in terms of getting quick hits on target, than the FTX should be chosen.

 

[Otreb]

From what I've seen over the chrono and my own general impressions, I'd much rather take a 158gr soft lead hollowpoint at 850fps or better in the .38sp. It's simply not efficient with lightweights like 9mmP is, being a lower pressure round.
The load has a good track record, and the heavier bullet forgives a lot of variables a lightweight 110gr at 900fps won't, IMO.

 

[rock_castle]

Either is fine but not optimal. Gold Dot 135gr +p is the snubnose holy grail according to most experts.

 

[Otreb]

The only issue with the Gold Dot for me has been inconsistent velocity. Most of the time it's getting mid 800s just as advertised but then I'll get a box that chronos in the high 700s or has huge spreads. In these days we place a ton of value on gelatin numbers, this load fails when it creeps below 800-820fps and there's any clothing involved.
I still like the heavier bullet. Expansion is icing on the cake, but penetration is the cake especially in the small guns. The FBI load properly done, has both.
I still like and use the Gold Dot, just wish it was more consistent.

 

[CoMF]

Hello,

The best answer to your question is whichever one "works" the best from your particular revolver (e.g. accuracy, recoil, muzzle flash).

The FTX is new and somewhat unproven, but there have been encouraging tests of it demonstrating adequate penetration and fairly reliable expansion at snub velocities.

I've read credible anecdotal reports that the new HTP version of Remington's LSWCHP load has a harder alloyed bullet. What this means is that at snub velocities, it may not expand as reliably, especially when fired through intermediate barriers like clothing. Out of a 3" or longer barrel, however, I'd still trust it.

I actually switched to the Speer GDSB load when Remington discontinued the older Express LHP. It shoots to POA in my Chief's Special if I "hold over" my front sight a little. Like the LSWCHP, it has a proven track record and is generally well-regarded. Give it a try if you happen to come across some for sale.

 

[Ramikrav]

When I am able to, I intend to purchase the Corbon DPX 110gr copper JHP, as per what DocGKR recommends, but as for now, would there be any objections to my loading the cylinder with the 158gr remmy FBI load and carrying a speed strip of the Hornady?

The only reason I'd do this is because to be honest, after reading all replies, I'm still leaning more towards the FBI load as being just a bit superior because of its weight, but I'm entirely leery of carrying raw lead in my pockets on a speed strip.

Would carrying lead loads in my pocket, if I'm sweating or whatever, result in bodily absorption of said?

If not, I might go all the way with the FBI load.

I also have read the accounts of remington's FBI load being different between the express line and the HTP line, but I have a hard time believing that remington did anything with that load besides put it in different boxes for marketing purposes.

I would like to see comparison tests done between the HTP and the express, does anyone have info as to that?

 

[Otreb]

When I am able to, I intend to purchase the Corbon DPX 110gr copper JHP, as per what DocGKR recommends, but as for now, would there be any objections to my loading the cylinder with the 158gr remmy FBI load and carrying a speed strip of the Hornady?

The only reason I'd do this is because to be honest, after reading all replies, I'm still leaning more towards the FBI load as being just a bit superior because of its weight, but I'm entirely leery of carrying raw lead in my pockets on a speed strip.

Would carrying lead loads in my pocket, if I'm sweating or whatever, result in bodily absorption of said?

If not, I might go all the way with the FBI load.

I also have read the accounts of remington's FBI load being different between the express line and the HTP line, but I have a hard time believing that remington did anything with that load besides put it in different boxes for marketing purposes.

I would like to see comparison tests done between the HTP and the express, does anyone have info as to that?

Your idea has a ton of merit with regard to carrying the lead hollowpoint in the gun and using the FTX/Critical defense as a speed load....they do speed load well.
I actually do that with my Taurus View since it can't take lead ammo (due to bullet-pull), so it's loaded with hot 110gr buffalo Bore/Barnes all copper (Same bullet as DPX) and I keep my leftover Critical defense loads in the speed loader or speedstrip.

 

[bmcgilvray]

I've been handloading, shooting, and carrying ammunition with lead bullets in my pockets all my life and I'm only just recently grown this small, handy, prehensile tail. I wouldn't concern myself with carrying lead bullets.

One would have to read about lead absorption in order to gain a firm understanding of potential problems. I've see anecdotal comments from various shooters, handloaders, and bullet casters claiming to have been medically tested and showing low lead levels. I didn't see their tests, have no medical knowledge of such, and have never been tested myself.

If I knew I had to use a .38 Special for some sort of serious purpose, contrive whatever hypothetical scenario one can imagine, and had the ammunition options mentioned in posts to this thread so far from which to choose, I'd choose the "FBI load" every time over every other load mentioned here. That's just me. Having used such a load in the .38 Special in both factory and handloaded guise for years in the field against varmints and critters of all sizes up to and including Texas whitetail deer I've seen how it works and have a familiar confidence in it.

The semi-wadcutter bullet doesn't transfer from speedloader to the chambers in ones .38 Special cylinder as readily as do other choices and the Corbon DPX load might be less "fiddly" when really needing a fast reload than an example of the "FBI load."

 

[Ramikrav]

....... using the FTX/Critical defense as a speed load....they do speed load well.

That they do.
Its another bonus for the hornady load.

I do not envision using this snubnose for extremely precise work like varminting, nor do I think I'll ever have to use the gun for self defense much past 3 yards, let alone 10. Hence, bullet spread and exact point of aim may not be such an issue, but speedy reloads might be.
That being said, i like consistency. I'd really rather carry the same flavor in my reloads as I do my initial volley.
But would the raw lead from the FBI load be safe in my pocket?

The charter isn't a smith, but its not bad for what it is, and at 16oz I don't know if I'd be seeing any sort of bullet pull from the lead?

In any case, I'm pretty sure that I could load the revolver from speed strips quickly enough with the remington FBI load, even tho I know that the shape of the hornady is for sure going to make it faster.
The issue I'd have is the whole raw lead absorption thing.

I really don't want to give -myself- the dose of lead poisoning thats supposed to be in reserve for anyone more...... deserving.

Has anyone else here been carrying raw lead reloads in speed strips or speed loaders, in their pockets or in any other fashion close to their flesh, who can assuage my fear or confirm my trepidation?

 

[ContinentalOp]

When I am able to, I intend to purchase the Corbon DPX 110gr copper JHP, as per what DocGKR recommends, but as for now, would there be any objections to my loading the cylinder with the 158gr remmy FBI load and carrying a speed strip of the Hornady?

The only reason I'd do this is because to be honest, after reading all replies, I'm still leaning more towards the FBI load as being just a bit superior because of its weight, but I'm entirely leery of carrying raw lead in my pockets on a speed strip.

Would carrying lead loads in my pocket, if I'm sweating or whatever, result in bodily absorption of said?

Whenever I carried FBI loads in my gun (I used BB's version in my K-frames) I always used JHP for my reloads for other reasons. 1) If the lead is soft enough to expand it's also soft enough to become deformed when not carried in a rigid pouch. I was concerned about how that might affect its terminal performance. 2) Reloading a revolver under stress can be difficult to do and the smooth, rounded profile of most JHP is easier to load than the semiwadcutter profile of the FBI load with that stepped shoulder.

I don't think exposure from carrying lead bullets in pockets would be likely to have any negative side effects in adults, but that's not my area of expertise so take it for what it's worth. I always used a pocket pouch when carrying strips in my pockets so that might be a good option for you. I use the one from Side Guard Holsters.

 

[Ramikrav]

I've been handloading, shooting, and carrying ammunition with lead bullets in my pockets all my life and I'm only just recently grown this small, handy, prehensile tail. I wouldn't concern myself with carrying lead bullets.

One would have to read about lead absorption in order to gain a firm understanding of potential problems. I've see anecdotal comments from various shooters, handloaders, and bullet casters claiming to have been medically tested and showing low lead levels. I didn't see their tests, have no medical knowledge of such, and have never been tested myself.

If I knew I had to use a .38 Special for some sort of serious purpose, contrive whatever hypothetical scenario one can imagine, and had the ammunition options mentioned in posts to this thread so far from which to choose, I'd choose the "FBI load" every time over every other load mentioned here. That's just me. Having used such a load in the .38 Special in both factory and handloaded guise for years in the field against varmints and critters of all sizes up to and including Texas whitetail deer I've seen how it works and have a familiar confidence in it.

The semi-wadcutter bullet doesn't transfer from speedloader to the chambers in ones .38 Special cylinder as readily as do other choices and the Corbon DPX load might be less "fiddly" when really needing a fast reload than an example of the "FBI load."

Excellent thank you.
Lead poisoning is pretty apparent when its bad enough and if your not having any issues...... issue solved.

the FBI load is starting to look better and better.

I may simply use the box of hornady for when I issue the revolver to the mrs., she generally carries a beretta bobcat (which is actually my tertiary lol) because she is disabled, but at times she has need of something with more oopmh (like babysitting the mother in laws house for a weekend while the MIL is out of town, for example).
The hornady -does- have less recoil, as per mine and her own observations.

So far, excellent responses. All ya'lls input is helping me tremendously.

Great forum.

Thank you all so much.

 

[Ramikrav]

Whenever I carried FBI loads in my gun (I used BB's version in my K-frames) I always used JHP for my reloads for other reasons. 1) If the lead is soft enough to expand it's also soft enough to become deformed when not carried in a rigid pouch. I was concerned about how that might affect its terminal performance.

Interesting.

Would carrying such a lead load in a dedicated pocket, say on a speed strip in the watch pocket of my levi's, be more or less likely to result in deformation of the projectile?

 

[ContinentalOp]

Interesting.

Would carrying such a lead load in a dedicated pocket, say on a speed strip in the watch pocket of my levi's, be more or less likely to result in deformation of the projectile?

I can't speak from experience as I doubt I could fit a fifty-cent piece in the "watch pocket" on my jeans let alone a speed strip with ammo, but I think it would depend on where the pocket is located. If the pocket is located such that moving, like bending and sitting, doesn't affect the pocket's contents then you're probably alright. You could always try sticking an old credit card or something of similar size in the pocket and see what happens.

 

[shouldazagged]

At least one retired LEO on this forum twice had to use the FBI load on duty to save his bacon in gunfights. He found it worked, and favors it to this day in his .38 snubs.

I read figures showing the new version of the Remington +p 158gr. LSWCHP clocked slower than the older version I've carried for years. I also learned that the Buffalo Bore standard pressure rendition chronographs virtually identically to the old Remington +P. That's what I carry now. Pricey, but it's gas-checked and uses reduced-flash powders.

I might try the Gold Dot Short Barrel stuff eventually, but my preference for years has been the heavy soft-lead hollowpoint.

 

[Ramikrav]

I can't speak from experience as I doubt I could fit a fifty-cent piece in the "watch pocket" on my jeans let alone a speed strip with ammo, but I think it would depend on where the pocket is located. If the pocket is located such that moving, like bending and sitting, doesn't affect the pocket's contents then you're probably alright. You could always try sticking an old credit card or something of similar size in the pocket and see what happens.

I can fit two fully loaded (6 rds.) speed strips in the watch pocket of my jeans, but I'm not so sure about the deformations issue because the way it sounds, you need to have something rigid to actually protect the projectiles besides denim. Adding much more to my pocket as stuffed as it is isnt an option lol.

 

[Ramikrav]

At least one retired LEO on this forum twice had to use the FBI load on duty to save his bacon in gunfights. He found it worked, and favors it to this day in his .38 snubs.

I read figures showing the new version of the Remington +p 158gr. LSWCHP clocked slower than the older version I've carried for years. I also learned that the Buffalo Bore standard pressure rendition chronographs virtually identically to the old Remington +P. That's what I carry now. Pricey, but it's gas-checked and uses reduced-flash powders.

I've so far reloaded the cylinder with the remmy and am keeping the FTX onboard the speed strips.

Considering the buffalo bore FBI rendition vs. the corbon DPX as a next purchase is further thought provoking.

thank you all.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I can fit two fully loaded (6 rds.) speed strips in the watch pocket of my jeans, but I'm not so sure about the deformations issue because the way it sounds, you need to have something rigid to actually protect the projectiles besides denim. Adding much more to my pocket as stuffed as it is isnt an option lol.

I hear you on pocket capacity issues.

Since I never used the so-called "watch pocket" on my jeans I had to use my regular pockets for carrying strips and I usually had other things in there at the same time, hence my use of a pocket speed strip pouch to help protect the ammo. Chances are if all you have in the watch pocket are reloads and they're not so loose in there as to shift and move I think you'll be alright carrying them in there.

Also keep in mind that expansion is good if it happens but it may not, so LHP deformation may or may not be an issue. I would like to have perfectly formed hollowpoints to give them the best chance of doing what they're designed to do, but I would put it lower on the list of priorities than things like reliability and controllability.

 

[S&Wrevolverfan]

Ramikrav, you are talking about the Remington RTP38S12 aren't you ? Just wondering because Remington calls it lead hollow point instead of lead semi-wadcutter HP.

I have been looking at this load as well and have read as much as I can find on it. I would like to see some more results as well. Some say it's as good as the older load and some say it's not. I couldn't find anything that's really current on folks testing it.

I need to order some .38 in bulk and was wondering if this would work well in my j frames as well as my 4" K frames. It can be had pretty cheap, but there may be a good reason for that.

Hopefully someone will post some current results of the newer Remington "FBI" load.

Thanks for starting this thread and to everyone for posting their advise.

 

[Ramikrav]

I hear you on pocket capacity issues.

Since I never used the so-called "watch pocket" on my jeans I had to use my regular pockets for carrying strips and I usually had other things in there at the same time, hence my use of a pocket speed strip pouch to help protect the ammo. Chances are if all you have in the watch pocket are reloads and they're not so loose in there as to shift and move I think you'll be alright carrying them in there.

Also keep in mind that expansion is good if it happens but it may not, so LHP deformation may or may not be an issue. I would like to have perfectly formed hollowpoints to give them the best chance of doing what they're designed to do, but I would put it lower on the list of priorities than things like reliability and controllability.

Well, barring the lead contamination issue, which I believe to be a moot point for the most part, I -could- simply load up a strip and carry on. Whichever way it ends up, its a learning experience that costs 6 rounds out a 50 round box lol.
If I choose to do this and they do deform badly I will not hesitate to share.

As for reliability, I know a charter isnt a smith, but this one has been good so far. Its a newer model specced for +P, and I actually went on E-Bay to find a set of the old school charter "wood splinter" grips for carry, which are the checkered kind. I intend to get a T Grip style adapter from the gent who makes the plastic ones, but I really like the old school style of a snubnose, and even with just the wood grips, control-ability isnt too bad with everything I've shot thru the gun so far (mostly a mix of range fodder).

One day I want to get a nicer snub, but the charter was priced right and the .40 CZ RAMI rides front and center.
Now THAT little pistol, you load her too hot, and she BARKS.

 

[Mister X]

My choice is Cor-Bon DPX. I've been carrying it for the last 8 years or so. Pricey, but worth it IMO. I wish they still made a standard pressure for the Wife. I'm considering giving the standard pressure Buffalo Bore round a try for her.

 

[Ramikrav]

Ramikrav, you are talking about the Remington RTP38S12 aren't you ? Just wondering because Remington calls it lead hollow point instead of lead semi-wadcutter HP.

I have been looking at this load as well and have read as much as I can find on it. I would like to see some more results as well. Some say it's as good as the older load and some say it's not. I couldn't find anything that's really current on folks testing it.

I need to order some .38 in bulk and was wondering if this would work well in my j frames as well as my 4" K frames. It can be had pretty cheap, but there may be a good reason for that.

Hopefully someone will post some current results of the newer Remington "FBI" load.

Thanks for starting this thread and to everyone for posting their advise.

Yeah the "high terminal performance" stuff.

All due respect to other posters, but I cannot see why Remington would go and label something "high terminal performance" from a more mundane marketing name such as "express", and then turn around and make that proven load less effective.

Not saying it can't be so, it certainly wouldn't be the first time a company did something similar to cut costs and increase marketing hype, but this -is- Remington; Not some fly by night or euro/ruskie fodder company, and they know their classic load works.

They also know that guys who are much more knowledgeable then myself would very quickly pick up on any shenanigans and that no matter how much money they could save on cutting corners and possibly make on hype alone, it wouldn't be a long lasting business strategy.

Remington has been in business long enough to not need to play those sorts of games with ammo they market and intend for self defense.

If they DID do something like this, thye KNOW guys like us would be totally turned off and might even stop buying their product.

Thats not how you stay in business as long as Remington has.

It just doesn't make sense.

In any case, I've seen tests showing all sorts of differing performance from snubs with every round mentioned in this thread, haven't we all?

I mean, I've seen tests of this hornady FTX load expanding thru stone tile, i've seen it fail to expand in denim, i've seen it make good penetration and fail to do so in many tests.

Maybe its that the snubnose .38 special revolver itself is already borderline to the point where its such an exacting taskmaster of the performance of the ammo its firing that we really SHOULD stick to a heavier bullet, because when all else may fail, mass is still mass and penetration is what matters most?

These are just my thoughts on the matter and please in no way should anyone be offended or take my word as any sort of gospel.

And thank you to everyone for tolerating my brainstormin' on ya'lls forum.