.38 snubnose: Hornady FTX -or- Remmy's "FBI" load?

[Ramikrav]

Whenever I carried FBI loads in my gun (I used BB's version in my K-frames) I always used JHP for my reloads for other reasons. 1) If the lead is soft enough to expand it's also soft enough to become deformed when not carried in a rigid pouch. I was concerned about how that might affect its terminal performance.

Interesting.

Would carrying such a lead load in a dedicated pocket, say on a speed strip in the watch pocket of my levi's, be more or less likely to result in deformation of the projectile?

 

[ContinentalOp]

Interesting.

Would carrying such a lead load in a dedicated pocket, say on a speed strip in the watch pocket of my levi's, be more or less likely to result in deformation of the projectile?

I can't speak from experience as I doubt I could fit a fifty-cent piece in the "watch pocket" on my jeans let alone a speed strip with ammo, but I think it would depend on where the pocket is located. If the pocket is located such that moving, like bending and sitting, doesn't affect the pocket's contents then you're probably alright. You could always try sticking an old credit card or something of similar size in the pocket and see what happens.

 

[shouldazagged]

At least one retired LEO on this forum twice had to use the FBI load on duty to save his bacon in gunfights. He found it worked, and favors it to this day in his .38 snubs.

I read figures showing the new version of the Remington +p 158gr. LSWCHP clocked slower than the older version I've carried for years. I also learned that the Buffalo Bore standard pressure rendition chronographs virtually identically to the old Remington +P. That's what I carry now. Pricey, but it's gas-checked and uses reduced-flash powders.

I might try the Gold Dot Short Barrel stuff eventually, but my preference for years has been the heavy soft-lead hollowpoint.

 

[Ramikrav]

I can't speak from experience as I doubt I could fit a fifty-cent piece in the "watch pocket" on my jeans let alone a speed strip with ammo, but I think it would depend on where the pocket is located. If the pocket is located such that moving, like bending and sitting, doesn't affect the pocket's contents then you're probably alright. You could always try sticking an old credit card or something of similar size in the pocket and see what happens.

I can fit two fully loaded (6 rds.) speed strips in the watch pocket of my jeans, but I'm not so sure about the deformations issue because the way it sounds, you need to have something rigid to actually protect the projectiles besides denim. Adding much more to my pocket as stuffed as it is isnt an option lol.

 

[Ramikrav]

At least one retired LEO on this forum twice had to use the FBI load on duty to save his bacon in gunfights. He found it worked, and favors it to this day in his .38 snubs.

I read figures showing the new version of the Remington +p 158gr. LSWCHP clocked slower than the older version I've carried for years. I also learned that the Buffalo Bore standard pressure rendition chronographs virtually identically to the old Remington +P. That's what I carry now. Pricey, but it's gas-checked and uses reduced-flash powders.

I've so far reloaded the cylinder with the remmy and am keeping the FTX onboard the speed strips.

Considering the buffalo bore FBI rendition vs. the corbon DPX as a next purchase is further thought provoking.

thank you all.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I can fit two fully loaded (6 rds.) speed strips in the watch pocket of my jeans, but I'm not so sure about the deformations issue because the way it sounds, you need to have something rigid to actually protect the projectiles besides denim. Adding much more to my pocket as stuffed as it is isnt an option lol.

I hear you on pocket capacity issues.

Since I never used the so-called "watch pocket" on my jeans I had to use my regular pockets for carrying strips and I usually had other things in there at the same time, hence my use of a pocket speed strip pouch to help protect the ammo. Chances are if all you have in the watch pocket are reloads and they're not so loose in there as to shift and move I think you'll be alright carrying them in there.

Also keep in mind that expansion is good if it happens but it may not, so LHP deformation may or may not be an issue. I would like to have perfectly formed hollowpoints to give them the best chance of doing what they're designed to do, but I would put it lower on the list of priorities than things like reliability and controllability.

 

[S&Wrevolverfan]

Ramikrav, you are talking about the Remington RTP38S12 aren't you ? Just wondering because Remington calls it lead hollow point instead of lead semi-wadcutter HP.

I have been looking at this load as well and have read as much as I can find on it. I would like to see some more results as well. Some say it's as good as the older load and some say it's not. I couldn't find anything that's really current on folks testing it.

I need to order some .38 in bulk and was wondering if this would work well in my j frames as well as my 4" K frames. It can be had pretty cheap, but there may be a good reason for that.

Hopefully someone will post some current results of the newer Remington "FBI" load.

Thanks for starting this thread and to everyone for posting their advise.

 

[Ramikrav]

I hear you on pocket capacity issues.

Since I never used the so-called "watch pocket" on my jeans I had to use my regular pockets for carrying strips and I usually had other things in there at the same time, hence my use of a pocket speed strip pouch to help protect the ammo. Chances are if all you have in the watch pocket are reloads and they're not so loose in there as to shift and move I think you'll be alright carrying them in there.

Also keep in mind that expansion is good if it happens but it may not, so LHP deformation may or may not be an issue. I would like to have perfectly formed hollowpoints to give them the best chance of doing what they're designed to do, but I would put it lower on the list of priorities than things like reliability and controllability.

Well, barring the lead contamination issue, which I believe to be a moot point for the most part, I -could- simply load up a strip and carry on. Whichever way it ends up, its a learning experience that costs 6 rounds out a 50 round box lol.
If I choose to do this and they do deform badly I will not hesitate to share.

As for reliability, I know a charter isnt a smith, but this one has been good so far. Its a newer model specced for +P, and I actually went on E-Bay to find a set of the old school charter "wood splinter" grips for carry, which are the checkered kind. I intend to get a T Grip style adapter from the gent who makes the plastic ones, but I really like the old school style of a snubnose, and even with just the wood grips, control-ability isnt too bad with everything I've shot thru the gun so far (mostly a mix of range fodder).

One day I want to get a nicer snub, but the charter was priced right and the .40 CZ RAMI rides front and center.
Now THAT little pistol, you load her too hot, and she BARKS.

 

[Mister X]

My choice is Cor-Bon DPX. I've been carrying it for the last 8 years or so. Pricey, but worth it IMO. I wish they still made a standard pressure for the Wife. I'm considering giving the standard pressure Buffalo Bore round a try for her.

 

[Ramikrav]

Ramikrav, you are talking about the Remington RTP38S12 aren't you ? Just wondering because Remington calls it lead hollow point instead of lead semi-wadcutter HP.

I have been looking at this load as well and have read as much as I can find on it. I would like to see some more results as well. Some say it's as good as the older load and some say it's not. I couldn't find anything that's really current on folks testing it.

I need to order some .38 in bulk and was wondering if this would work well in my j frames as well as my 4" K frames. It can be had pretty cheap, but there may be a good reason for that.

Hopefully someone will post some current results of the newer Remington "FBI" load.

Thanks for starting this thread and to everyone for posting their advise.

Yeah the "high terminal performance" stuff.

All due respect to other posters, but I cannot see why Remington would go and label something "high terminal performance" from a more mundane marketing name such as "express", and then turn around and make that proven load less effective.

Not saying it can't be so, it certainly wouldn't be the first time a company did something similar to cut costs and increase marketing hype, but this -is- Remington; Not some fly by night or euro/ruskie fodder company, and they know their classic load works.

They also know that guys who are much more knowledgeable then myself would very quickly pick up on any shenanigans and that no matter how much money they could save on cutting corners and possibly make on hype alone, it wouldn't be a long lasting business strategy.

Remington has been in business long enough to not need to play those sorts of games with ammo they market and intend for self defense.

If they DID do something like this, thye KNOW guys like us would be totally turned off and might even stop buying their product.

Thats not how you stay in business as long as Remington has.

It just doesn't make sense.

In any case, I've seen tests showing all sorts of differing performance from snubs with every round mentioned in this thread, haven't we all?

I mean, I've seen tests of this hornady FTX load expanding thru stone tile, i've seen it fail to expand in denim, i've seen it make good penetration and fail to do so in many tests.

Maybe its that the snubnose .38 special revolver itself is already borderline to the point where its such an exacting taskmaster of the performance of the ammo its firing that we really SHOULD stick to a heavier bullet, because when all else may fail, mass is still mass and penetration is what matters most?

These are just my thoughts on the matter and please in no way should anyone be offended or take my word as any sort of gospel.

And thank you to everyone for tolerating my brainstormin' on ya'lls forum.

 

[Mister X]

Your idea has a ton of merit with regard to carrying the lead hollowpoint in the gun and using the FTX/Critical defense as a speed load....they do speed load well.
I actually do that with my Taurus View since it can't take lead ammo (due to bullet-pull), so it's loaded with hot 110gr buffalo Bore/Barnes all copper (Same bullet as DPX) and I keep my leftover Critical defense loads in the speed loader or speedstrip.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Cor-Bon actually stopped using the Barnes X-bullet awhile back and is now manufacturing their own.

 

[Ramikrav]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Cor-Bon actually stopped using the Barnes X-bullet awhile back and is now manufacturing their own.

I don't know.

I do know that Barnes is loading their own defensive ammo, the Barnes TAC-XPD, featuring that projectile.

I like it mucho for my Rami, its very controllable and the tests I've seen of it so far are convincing, along with the fame of the DPX from corbon.

 

[3rdRRU_PhuBai]

Either bullet from either load delivered into either eyeball of the threat would probably terminate the threat, although I have no first-hand experience in such matters.

 

[TeaDub]

At some point, I will try to find some BB 158 grain to try. The FBI load does have a long track record.

Until then, I carry Golden Saber 125 gr +p. It seems to consistently expand out of a 2" barrel. The jacket petals also look like they would do extra cutting while passing through. A bonus is that they can be found pretty cheap. That allows me to practice more with my carry load.

 

[Ramikrav]

Either bullet from either load delivered into either eyeball of the threat would probably terminate the threat, although I have no first-hand experience in such matters.

Funny you should mention that.

The way I taught my wife to use her Beretta bobcat is similar.

However, barring the ability to make contact shots, we practice both "foom foom" [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM4h4TsEDqE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM4h4TsEDqE[/ame] targeted at high center of mass with the bigger bores, or the "zipper technique" with her little .22.

No "experience" here, none ever wanted, but I'm not going to be anyones victim either.

 

[Ramikrav]

That allows me to practice more with my carry load.

Initially, that; the fact that a box of the remmy stuff is much more economical than many others, and what I've read and seen of tests regarding the FBI load, is why I got a few boxes to begin with.

The Hornady stuff was just so nifty in its design that I couldnt say no lol.

 

[Otreb]

The Rem Golden Sabres are decent loads, I like them better than the Hornady CD and they chrono to advertised numbers or better sometimes. They don't speed load as easy as the Hornady CD/FTX, but they aren't bad either.
I used to carry Impact branded +P 158gr lswchp ammo in a speed loader, jeans pocket. Never had any issue with the lead exposure, but they do get a little chewed and deform fairly easily if you drop them or are foolish enough to put keys, change,etc in the same pocket.

 

[mj2008]

I'd probably go with the Hornady as it's a newer design and I like the specs. I actually carry it sometimes in my .38's. The other times I'm carrying Speer Gold Dots. I don't know if that is an option for you but it's also a very good round.

 

[Ramikrav]

I'm starting to think that going underweight in the snubnose is not the way to go.

Mostly, its because of the broad depth of information out there proving that the snubnose's ballistics are just barely marginal to make even the best designed projectiles as consistent as, say, the typical 9,.40,.45.

From every gel test done by those attempting to simulate FBI standards to those just plinkin' and posting their results, its pretty clear to me that the ammo in a .38 snubnose has a very tough job to perform- to be able to expand and penetrate properly from a low pressure gun with an abbreviated barrel.

Now, I do believe that the modern JHP's are great, they are the best we've ever had, but some things just aren't in the realm of the possibility because of the laws of physics.

Even though experts with a much more credible opinion then myself offer the opinion that there are JHP's that work and work well, I think the .38 special will do its best (or its worse lol) with heavier projectile loads.
This is because even if it fails to expand, a 158 grain bullet has the mass to utilize what the snubby can give it, to penetrate without deflection, and to not sacrifice penetration for expansion, which AFAIK, should be a sin in the defensive handgun world.

Does this mean I think the modern, lighter, JHP's are "worthless"?

Far from it.

But for me, I think that I'm going to carry the FBI load as my first volley.

Even if it fails to expand, that's still one heck of a chunk of lead, and in all the tests I've seen it FAIL to expand in, it seems to flatten and still increase in diameter making it more of a wadcutter then the FMJ profile vs jacketed lightweights that fail to perform, which tend to also lack sectional density and deflect more readily off bone and such (like 9mm and .380, for example) whether they expand and perform as advertise or fail and act like ball.

I'm thinking that alot of guys here are also right in their observation of how the FBI load might be a bit more "fumbly" in a stressful reload and possibly even easily damaged in the pocket, and certainly may be deformed under the regular practice of reloading.
So, I'm keeping the FTX on the speed strips for now, but I think I want to try the Gold Dot short barrel stuff as its also got a -real- reputation, so far as I've read, in actual shootings, and its 135gr weight isnt too bad either.

If I do buy another box or few of lightweights, it'll be the 110gr corbon solid coppers, because DocGKR's recommendations are highly regarded.

For all intents and purposes, I feel the hornady FTX line might be a good choice in .38 special for people like my wife, who have recoil issues.

And while I myself don't have those issues, I'm still not going to try any of that buffalo bore +p 158 grain FBI load in a small snubby, ESPECIALLY a charter arms revolver.

Now. Unless and until someone proves it otherwise in a thorough battery of tests, I do not feel the need to replace the Remington FBI load with the overpriced buffalo bore standard pressure load.

Its going to take alot of convincing to make me believe that Remington intentionally downloaded/reconfigured, to the point of making worthless, a cartridge that they know and the entire shooting world knows works.

And THEN they went and relabeled it from "express" to "high terminal performance"?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "express" line was never marketed solely for defensive purposes, but the name "high terminal performance" sure says just that.

Again, I just don't see Remington doing something as shady as relabeling something as such and THEN -intentionally- making it LESS effective at the very job the cartridge is now labeled to do, let alone is historically known to be useful for.

That just doesn't add up to my way of thinking.

I trust Remington to stand by its product as a well established American arms and ammo manufacturer.

As far as I'm concerned- the Remmy FBI load is now my go-to load, for snubnose .38 special.

Thank you all for your suggestions and for helping me make up my mind on this and especially to Brian for his direct help.

 

[chief38]

I am not all that impressed with the Hornady 110 grain FTX and never cared for bullets that light in a .38 Special bullet. The Remington "FBI Load" (NEW VERSION) is watered down to the point where I non longer trust it. The last time I chronographed FBI loads from the "Big Three" they were all in the mid 700's of velocity (out of a 2" M60) and are marginal for expansion and foot pounds of energy.

My current EDC loads (all chronographed and tested by myself) are either the Buffalo Bore "FBI load" (158 grain LSWCHP-GC) at 1025 fps and the Speer Short Barrel Gold Dot (135 grain JHP +P) at 850 fps BOTH out of my M60 2" barrel. The Speer has never failed to expand, penetrates to at least 12+ inches and has one of the best track records in actual shootings! The Buffalo Bore HEAVY load is a devastating round, penetrates 14 - 15 inches, expands fairly well and has 361 foot pounds of energy!

If you are serious about carrying the BEST defense load in a snub .38 Special, I would definitely consider one or both of these. The downside to the Buffalo Bore load is that it's a hard shooting round - although the most consistent and accurate of all the .38 special loads I've ever tested. The Speer GD is a bit less violent, but still maintains accuracy and consistency and it allows for quick follow up shots.

I have NEVER had a FTF or "bad bullets" from either one of the above rounds. (I can not say the same from the Rem's, & Win's.) IMHO the Hornady 110 grainer is simply TOO LIGHT a weight but there have always been two divided camps on this: light & fast OR slower and heavier. I have always gravitated towards heavy bullets and the Speer GD (135 grains) is the lightest I will go. YMMV