38 Special 200gr

[BreakerDan]

I for some reason am very interested in the 38 Super Police load.

Do any of you guys still reload this load or have factory cartridges?
I have the Magnus component bullet and vintage data as well as two
boxes of factories in excellent shape. It seems to be a decent load-but low on penetration capabilities. At least on heavy
stuff.

Was this load any good? I know we have the FBI load and the Speer
Gold Dot- but I can't help but think this might still be a decent load
from a snub. Do any of you guys still actually carry it?

 

[Savoy6]

I found a box of Winchester 200 gr. ammo a while back at a gun show. Its velocity is necessarily very slow with the heavy bullet; I chronographed a few rounds and it made 600 fps out of a 3" barrel Model 66. The bullet has a blunt, round nose. I have no idea how effective it would be for defensive use.

 

[max]

Many of the gun writers of the day didn't think much of it. Skeeter talked about it bouncing off car glass. The Brits used something similar in WWII and it was not well thought of either.

 

[Erich]

A friend gave me some of his cast 195-gr RNL bullets - with reloading data from the '60s and 2400, I was able to get them going 840 fps from a snub. No factory loads were anywhere near that, I understand.

 

[flop-shank]

Don't waste your time, Dan. The two loads you mentioned in your post are about as good as it gets. 200 gr. is too heavy for caliber and a wimpier version of 158 gr. RNL.

 

[Erich]

195-gr .38 Spl handloads with 2400

1 7/8" M 844.2 fps/ES 35.83/SD 12.77
2 1/8" M 871.2/ES 28.29/SD 13.49
3" M 941.0/ES 32.50/SD 15.79
4" M 973.2/ES 16.65/SD 6.32
6" M 1020/ES 22.02/SD 9.53

And that wasn't even the max load in the manual (an old one, though). Frankly, I'm happy to have this load available for use . . . should penetrate like a SOB.

As I said above, though, factory loadings don't come near this.

 

[flop-shank]

No doubt you'll get super-duper deep penetration.

My thinking is that if I were inclined to use a non expanding bullet with deep penetration in mind, I would rather use Buffalo Bore's 150 gr. hard cast wadcutter (there is a gelatin test of said load on the Brass Fetcher website BTW). I have no use for round nose bullets since they leave ice pick-like wounds (Jim Cirillo didn't care for them and that says plenty IMO) and I see no advantage to a bullet heavier than 158 grains. As the Brass Fetcher test shows, there's more penetration than you will ever need against bipeds in a 150 gr. bullet. The only bullet style that I think would tend to track straighter than a DEWC would be a HBWC. Wadcutters tend to leave full caliber holes. Lobo and I disagreed on this a while back. IIRC he saw an autopsy of a wadcutter shootee and the wound was very severe according to him. Perhaps he'll share his thoughts on this.

I also have a place in my heart (not literally please !!!!! ) for the good old SWC, the great general purpose bullet. Anything but RNL, please.

 

[RedBerens]

I picked up a full box of the Winchester version about two years ago. I too am interested in the older police loads, including the 110gr Super Vel JHP, and the Federal +P+ 110gr. From a nostalgic perspective, I think they are pretty neat.

I almost wonder if these would be better suited for winter carry when heavy coats / layers need to be defeated. I know - there are better modern loads, but if you're feeling nostalgic, a snub-nosed model 10 loaded with these, and carried in a Lawrence or Baker holster would be fun.

 

[flop-shank]

Red, my tests have shown me that heavy clothing (four layer denim) does little to stop bullets. It may affect their expansion and thus how deep they penetrate, but oftentimes bullets penetrate deeper through heavy cloth.

 

[ifjpm]

200gr 38 super police

A relative of mine about 30 years ago carried the 200 gr super police round as a duty round. He was a federal LE officer. He shot two individuals with these rounds which worked just fine for him.

Shot placement is the key in self-dense

 

[sigp220.45]

I've always been fascinated by these rounds. I used to carry them in an old nickel Model 36, but I lost custody of both the gun and the rounds in a divorce a couple of decades ago. There was something very reassuring about dropping those big blunt rounds into that little cylinder.

There are probably better loads for your .38 Special, but then again there are probably better options than a .38 altogether. I bet they'll work just fine.

One of the details I remember from Joe Wambaugh's great non-fiction book "The Onion Field" is that LAPD Officer Ian Campbell was shot with either his own gun, or his partner's, and that the fatal bullets were 200 grain "Super Police" loads. Both of those guys carried six inch guns, even in plainclothes, so maybe that longer barrel help boost the velocity a bit.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I do reload a 200gr LRN bullet but not in the .38 Special but in the .38 S&W to replicate the old British 38/200 ammo. It's a hoot to shoot from my old Enfield No.2 revolver. I never had the urge to load those bullets in a .38 Special, well, not until now...

 

[Erich]

flop, (as you know) I agree on the benefits of heavily loaded full wadcutters and load a lot of them (both 148-gr hardcasts at over 900 fps from snubs and now Skip's 160-grainers at 840 fps from a snub) in a defensive role. They don't penetrate like my 195-grainers (at 840 fps from snubs), though - bullet-shape, as you point out, is a big deal - and mass doesn't hurt.

The penetration wanted for a defensive load against a person (perfectly suited to a tailored hardcast WC loading) and that suited for a black bear, though, are different. I use the 195-gr hardcast handloads when I really want to drill a hole.

 

[Kirmdog]

I used the Lyman 195 RN at around 750/800 fps out of a S&W mod. 60 to shoot a whitetail doe from a treestand. Shot almost straight down at about 5 feet and broke the spine, one lung, penatrated the shoulder bone and the bullet continued down the off side foreleg shatttering it for it's whole lenght and exited just above the knee joint and into the frozen ground never to be recovered. The deer never moved out of it's tracks because of the spine hit and expired shortly after the shot.

Those that believe that slow heavy bullets don't work should read about the horrable wounds inflicted by arms in the Civil war by 58 cal. Minie's traveling at 1000 fps or less. When hitting bone they tend to remove or shatter large chunks resulting in amputations in humans. Modern medicine may save some of the body parts but it's hard to function with 6 inches of someone's femur displaced in their leg and even less likely with part of their spine laying on the floor behind them.

Like all bullets, they work with proper placement. I don't intend on shooting at windshields but I do load these heavyweights in my house guns knowing that they will work.

Kirmdog

 

[smith17]

Kirm:
You certainly have a unique and descriptive way of writing. Thanks for the mental images.
Ed

 

[Erich]

Don, thanks for posting that one.

 

[flop-shank]

Erich, I thought you might have bears or barrier penetration in mind with that load. The thought of bears can even make me start turning into a Facklerite!

 

[BreakerDan]

Thanks for all the replies. I went and tried this load on some items.
The bullets bounced off the outside of an a/c window unit and only went through the outer tin of a water heater- yes both were in a junk heap.
Not too impressed with them.

 

[flop-shank]

Not too impressed with them.

Now you know why they have little following and are no longer in production.

 

[BreakerDan]

Yes sir when i bought those 200gr 38s, an older gentleman at the gun show noticed them and said they were not what they were cracked up to be. He was right. In all fairness, the Remington load of it seems better than the Win. My dad's 1946 M&P loves them accuracy wise though. I was shocked it hit point of aim with them AND 158gr lrn.