.38 Special +P limits in reloading manuels

[AABEN]

Okay, it's said that out of a 4 inch barrel, .38 Special +P 158 gr bullets in FACTORY ammo gets you about 890 ft per second.
I checked my reloading manuels, a Speer manuel and a Hornandy manuel.

Hornandy doesn't even have a +P section and none of their powders take you past 850 ft per second.

Speer's maximum for +P is between 905-1037 ft per second. I think the hottest powder listed is Power Pistol (don't see 2400). That sounds pretty impressive....until I saw it was tested with a 6 inch barrel, which would reduce the results out of a 4 inch barrel well below factory ammo. Pretty pathetic....I've always heard reload powders are better than what factory dumps in those cartridges.

I know the manuels say "Maximum means just that, don't go beyond it" and I wouldn't dream of advocating anything dangerous...but...isn't that a little weak?

When the powder factorys come out with new powders all you need to do give them a call and they will send you a small load book for all of ther powders for free.

 

[bmcgilvray]

ArchAngelCD, Erich, and others here have made valid points so there's little to add except that the following statement is simply untrue.

The ammo factories usually use the same kind of test equipment that the reloading manuals do so they will advertise velocities that your gun will never get, just like the loading manuals. Or just compare the data in the load manuals against the factory specs. for a rough estimate, but understand you aren't getting it in your firearms.

"...you gun will never get...?" "...you aren't getting it...?"

Some folks just need to get out more often. One afternoon spent shooting over some chronograph screens will reveal that it is no trick to use real guns to achieve the performances that are advertised for many factory loadings and handloads can easily equal or best the performance data published in loading manuals.

 

[125JHP]

IMO this type of thing comes about when re-loaders try to duplicate factory loads.Right now there are several premium offerings that I would like to test and practice with including Gold Dot Short Barrel, Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, Ranget-T etc.

The problem is I can't afford to buy all that ammo to blast away at the range. Now if I could duplicate it, I could see what works for my guns and then practice with that load and carry the factory stuff for CCW. That way I can find out if the advertised velocity (often higher than normal and called +P) of that ammo will be that out of my gun.
Also some bullets like XTP need a certain minimum to get good expansion, so I want to be able to achieve that or else look for another bullet.
All I'm interested in doing is matching whatever the OEM load does from my gun, not what they are advertising it does from their test barrel. The OEMs don't use the same powders we have access to. As an example, look at 9mm NATO. The 124gr is reaching 1250 fps which is what many +p commercial loads advertise but at a pressure around 35000 psi - under SAMMI std. max. Not many powder books give standard pressure loads in the 1250fps range (Vihtavuori is one of the few). So IMO this is where the queries about +P load data is coming from, at least my interest in it.

 

[125JHP]

ArchAngelCD, Erich, and others here have made valid points so there's little to add except that the following statement is simply untrue.



"...you gun will never get...?" "...you aren't getting it...?"

Some folks just need to get out more often. One afternoon spent shooting over some chronograph screens will reveal that it is no trick to use real guns to achieve the performances that are advertised for many factory loadings and handloads can easily equal or best the performance data published in loading manuals.

Your right, most loads can be duplicated but I find quite often that the ones I want to duplicate, I'm in the max load range. Maybe its the powder selection I need to work on.

 

[Rule3]

Sounds like a man who needs to shoot more critters. And maybe study those laws of physics a bit more.

You study people who have been shot. Think they know the difference between a 38 special and a 38 +P out of a 2 inch snub? As to the 45 ACP, how many killed before +P was "invented"???
Shot is shot, dead is dead assuming the "shot placement is King"

Edit: a quick check of Hodgdons web site for the 125 gr XTP in 38 special shows the highest velocity (out of 7.7" barrel no less) of 1139 FPS using Win Auto Comp'

The same bullet in the +P data shows less velocity of 1073 fps using Win AC and a slightly higher velocity of 1138 using HS 6.

So, not too many folks I know are carrying 7.7" test barrels and the +P velocity is actually less

Guess that's why I carry a 40 SW as there is no +p (yet)

 

[Treeman]

Jellybean, You made a blanket that is simply untrue. The next tenth of a grain over the max in a manual didn't necessarily put the load over the max pressure limit. It MIGHT have but almost NEVER is your statement accurate. Read the writings of a few professional ballisticians and you will learn that they stop for all sorts of reasons-ballistic uniformity at a safe level with reasonable performance being chief. If you wish to criticize a reasonable post by someone that you disagree with, use facts or opinions that you acknowledge as such but please don't pull false facts out of your nether regions.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Think about it................

"nether regions"
Now listen, if you can't laugh at a well crafted response like this then your "laugher" is broke!
ROFLMHO!

Eric, by how much more velocity for the TVB? What length barrels?
Just curious.

As to the whole thing ArchAngel brings up, I couldn't agree with him more. When I look at current data for a powder for a certain caliber and the pressure reported as a maximum load is thousands of psi less than current SAMMI maximums for that caliber, I too feel that there is some wiggle room where a Handloader can move around in.

It isn't for every reloader to do, that's for sure but it can be done successfully and safely.

Case in point: Brian Pearce. He has a load for the 357Mag, using Lil'Gun and a 158gr XTP that is a full grain over maximum of Hodgdon's current data. The current data though for their maximum load is below current industry standards for that caliber. Room to wiggle. Slow powders are better to WIGGLE with though, but that is just my opinion.

Edit:
Added attachment of Hodgdon's data for said load. Notice the pressure related to the load in question. That is well below maximum of a lot of their own loads with other powders. For instance, H110/W296. Their load for the same bullet, develops over 40,000CUP. I know that there is no direct correlation between CUP and PSI BUT, there certainly is a relationship between more pressure and more pressure. The load in the data is 25,000CUP while the H110/W296 load is upwards of 40,000CUP. Now, I ain't no scientist but, that tells me I have a bit of wiggle room before I get into dangerous territory. If 40,000CUP is a safe load for my 357Mag with H110/W296 then adding a bit to a load that is 15,000CUP less, is not going to hurt said firearm nor me nor innocent bystanders.

FWIW

 

[gsparesa]

Hornandy doesn't even have a +P section and none of their powders take you past 850 ft per second.
QUOTE]

All the "+P loads" in the 8th Edition of Hornady's reloading handbook are proceeded by an asterisk (*).