38 spl +P in a Snubby-Ammo Question

[drotis]

Agreed to buy a Model 649 no dash snubby today. Plan to carry when the situation fits. I know it can handle occasional +P loads. Just wondering if it's worth it. Out of a 2" barrel am I just getting more recoil and muzzle flash? Am I better off with a solid .38 spl hollow point defensive round?
If you have specific ammo recommendations I'm all ears.

 

[OKFC05]

I prefer Speer short barrel +P 135gr .38 in a 442.
A "short barrel" load uses powder that is efficient in a short barrel.
I was surprised to find the Speer SB ammo chrono in my gun matched the advertised speed, around 860 fps.
For most practice, I use wadcutters over HP38.

Just to be clear, a max load of slow powder will produce speeds over 900 in the short barrel, but at the expense of blast and flash beyond what I find acceptable.

 

[DocB]

What OKFC05 said. I actually carry wad cutters for SD. I have them in my wife's little 38 too. They are effective and adequate. If necessary, I want her to be able to easily get off a second or third shot.

 

[murphydog]

Agree with the above ammo choice. Many practice primarily with standard pressure ammo, and use a few (expensive) +P rounds to verify function and zero - this will not unduly harm your 649.

 

[Alk8944]

"....solid .38 spl hollow point...." Huh?????

 

[dusty3030]

Speer Gold Dot 135grain +P is what I keep in all our .38's (my 637, wife's 442 and her 3" 64.)
Haven't run through a chrono though but on a big fat raccoon the bullet opened up as advertised and went through and through.

 

[BC38]

"....solid .38 spl hollow point...." Huh?????

In this case I think "solid" is being used as a synonym for dependable...

 

[fedoff]

Speer Gold Dot 135grain +P is one of the better ammo choices for a snubby. It has excellent ballistics at 10ft. and with a short barrel 10-20ft is going to be the most accurate range.

 

[ruger 22]

I use Glaser safety slugs in my 38 special 649-2. Low recoil and very good stopping power but a bit expensive for lots of practice. I practice with wadcutters or cheap 158 gr solids. I also have Crimson Trace Lasergrips on it.

 

[Hapworth]

Yes, it's worth the (very little) extra flash and bang.

 

[OLDSTER]

I never shoot .38+P; more of a cost thing than recoil. With my J frame snubbies I practice with the cheapest "plinkers" I can buy, and carry .38 110gr Hornady Critical Defense

 

[Pointblank2U]

I've gone over to the new Hornady American Gunner. It's loaded with the XTP bullet that favors penetration over expansion and it's a standard pressure load. It's priced very reasonably.

 

[drotis]

In this case I think "solid" is being used as a synonym for dependable...

Thanks for the info, all.

And yes, by "solid" I meant "high quality and dependable".

 

[Az. revolver fan]

Best to stick with either hard cast sharp-edged 158 grn. wadcutters or semi-wadcutters in standard .38 spl. loads out of a 2" barrel. Another alternative is the old "FBI" recipe of a 158 grn. soft-lead HP in a +p load.
All of us old time cops from the .38 spl. days know that jacketed HP's are a waste of $$ out of a 2" .38 spl., that is why the late Bill Ruger brought out the SP-101 in .357 mag for snubby lovers that wanted to stick with JHP's and obtain reliable expansion.

 

[kaaskop49]

Best to stick with either hard cast sharp-edged 158 grn. wadcutters or semi-wadcutters in standard .38 spl. loads out of a 2" barrel. Another alternative is the old "FBI" recipe of a 158 grn. soft-lead HP in a +p load.
All of us old time cops from the .38 spl. days know that jacketed HP's are a waste of $$ out of a 2" .38 spl., that is why the late Bill Ruger brought out the SP-101 in .357 mag for snubby lovers that wanted to stick with JHP's and obtain reliable expansion.

What he said! Guess I'll just keep carrying my W-W 158gr LHPs in my 2" J-frames, as I've done for years... decades.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

P.S. Az revolver fan: Never heard that one about the reasoning behind the SP101. Very interesting. Any more skinny on that?
Stay safe, partner.

 

[Hapworth]

Best to stick with either hard cast sharp-edged 158 grn. wadcutters or semi-wadcutters in standard .38 spl. loads out of a 2" barrel. Another alternative is the old "FBI" recipe of a 158 grn. soft-lead HP in a +p load.
All of us old time cops from the .38 spl. days know that jacketed HP's are a waste of $$ out of a 2" .38 spl...

All great loads you can't go wrong with -- but I'll stick up for the new crop; bullet design has advanced considerably in the last twenty years and loads like Speer's Gold Dot Short Barrel and CorBon's DPX are game-changers that do provide reliable penetration and expansion from 2" barrels.

 

[Az. revolver fan]

All great loads you can't go wrong with -- but I'll stick up for the new crop; bullet design has advanced considerably in the last twenty years and loads like Speer's Gold Dot Short Barrel and CorBon's DPX are game-changers that do provide reliable penetration and expansion from 2" barrels.

No offense, but it sounds like you read all the latest gun magazines. Standard .38 spl. out of a 2" barrel is way slower than listed on ammo boxes or in "gun magazines", sometimes not even reaching 700 fps.

As for the "high tech" JHP's you listed, I refer you to Massad Ayoob's reporting or any other official account of the infamous Skokie, Ill. bank robbery gunfight. I believe "American Handgunner" carried the account recently.

 

[Hapworth]

No offense, but it sounds like you read all the latest gun magazines. Standard .38 spl. out of a 2" barrel is way slower than listed on ammo boxes or in "gun magazines", sometimes not even reaching 700 fps.

As for the "high tech" JHP's you listed, I refer you to Massad Ayoob's reporting or any other official account of the infamous Skokie, Ill. bank robbery gunfight. I believe "American Handgunner" carried the account recently.

You say "no offense", then proceed to deliberately offend by reducing a fellow member's researched and considered opinion to parroting shill articles in gun rags; I guess we know how much meaningful information you bring to the discussion.

Sounds like you're stuck at whatever point in history you found something you liked and decided to stay put; that's fine, but you may want to hold fire when the subjects you haven't kept up with are on the table.

Amusing that you open with deriding gun magazines as a source of information, and close with pointing to one to support your position.

 

[hangnoose]

ALL DUE RESPECT TO "THE NEW HIGH TECH AMMO"

An old fashioned flat point hard cast wad cutter, a 148 gr double ended seated flush for me with a miserly 2.7-3.2 gr's of bullseye, hit the steel plates & bowling pins so hard I'm often asked which 357 ammo am I using. At bad breath to a car lengths distance these flying ashtrays of the 38 world would have to ruin someone's day. NO hollow points/jackets, human results, ballistic gel, or Chrono's used, JMO. VERY low cost to make, very little recoil or flash, & it's the same load I practice with all the time. If it doesn't get the job done, you put it in the wrong spot, & a corbon etc. wouldn't make much difference.

 

[Pisgah]

Your revolver will hold up to +P loads long after your hand has been reduced to a bruised, broken, immobile claw. As to whether it gives any advantage, my answer would be that it sure could IF you can hit what you're shooting at. If the buck 'n' roar is too much for you, you're better off sticking with the milder standard stuff.

 

[Edmo]

To the OP, +P ammo will obviously produce more recoil and potentially more flash. More isn't a bad thing if you can handle the slight increase in recoil. Depending upon your grips and sensitivity to recoil, a snubby can be snappy. Pick a "short barrel" load to help maximize velocities and minimize muzzle flash.

I do occasionally carry a 38 Special snubby and I practice enough to hit with the limited ammo a snubby has on tap. These little revolvers demand practice to overcome the heavy trigger, short sight radius, slow reloads, and minimalist sights.

Now for the realist in me... The energy levels of the 38 Special out of a short barrel are low. They fall somewhere between the 380 ACP and the 9mm. Nothing against it, but I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

We all want to carry the best, but to quibble over the "most effective" rounds for these little revolvers is amusing to say the least. I'm no ballistics guru, however I would suggest the effectiveness of all the affirmed defensive rounds in 38 Special fall into a small sliver of energy levels and effectiveness.

Pick a "good" one and just know the limitations imposed by both the platform and caliber.

I carry or have carried the following ammo in my snubs:

- Speer 135 grain Gold Dot +P for short barrels
- Hornady 110 grain Critical Defense both standard and +P
- Remington 124 Grain Golden Saber +P
- Remington 125 grain SJHP +P
- Remington 158 grain LSWCHP +P.

Often times it boils down to what I have on hand or what is available.

Hopefully we will never need these little guns, but remember to practice, practice, practice... You get five chances and only hits count.

Edmo

 

[ISCS Yoda]

J frames, IMHO, are designed for one thing, and one thing only, up close, personal self defense. So using heavy duty, high recoiling +P or, if it's the right gun, .357 Magnum ammunition is of no particular value. Lots of roar and fire but to what end? Especially since there are so many easier to shoot options available.

Once you get outside of your personal space you run into the real problem with J frames - getting a second shot off using highest performance ammunition it extremely difficult and accuracy takes a back seat. Lots of guys swear by their +P and .357 J frames but the axiom "shot a little, carried a lot" applies. I love all of my friends here and I try to avoid arguing with them about proficiency with J frames but shooting one at a target at a range, where you can take the recoil, adjust, and get back on target, doesn't compare to shooting one in a hurry. Some guys are good with them at the range and if you're one, outstanding, and good for you.

Put a baseball on a stick at 20 feet and try to hit it routinely with any J frame, especially an Airweight; it's difficult, and it's painful, no matter what anyone says

I really like Edmo's post above - you have to be realistic with these guns.

Hopefully we will never need these little guns, but remember to practice, practice, practice... You get five chances and only hits count.

Again, IMHO, that much practice with heavy recoiling J frames is likely to get you to carpal tunnel syndrome before you get really good at it with that gun.

I don't want to sound super negative on this subject but I have carried a 642 for years and my car gun is a 638 and I am happily weaning myself off them and carrying snubby K frames. Not only do I get 20% more firepower I get a lot less recoil and my accuracy is far, far superior than it is with a J frame. Again, to each his own, we all have preferences, but the older I get the less I like getting beaten up by recoil in my hands and wrists.

Just mi dos centavos.......

 

[firearmsunlimited]

Speer Gold Dot 135grain +P is what I keep in all our .38's (my 637, wife's 442 and her 3" 64.)
Haven't run through a chrono though but on a big fat raccoon the bullet opened up as advertised and went through and through.

The test results that I have seen place the Speer Gold Dots at the top of the list for penetration and controlled expansion. One of the few bullets that does not give up much kinetic energy after passing through denim. like Dusty my 337PD rounds are always loaded with them.

 

[pittpa]

I prefer Speer short barrel +P 135gr .38 in a 442.short
A "short barrel" load uses powder that is efficient in a short barrel.
I was surprised to find the Speer SB ammo chrono in my gun matched the advertised speed, around 860 fps.
For most practice, I use wadcutters over HP38.

Just to be clear, a max load of slow powder will produce speeds over 900 in the short barrel, but at the expense of blast and flash beyond what I find acceptable.

Ditto the Speer. Additionally, their 135g short barrel bullet has 7 expanding sections for this application, apparently aa aid to low-speed expansion. You can always identify them this way. The rest that I know of have 6. I've tested various name brand 38/357 defense rounds in the last month for speed as well as felt recoil in my 340PD, about half the weight of your 649. As for the 3 357 rounds (1046-1174 FPS), I don't choose to carry them, and never planned to. I was just curious about speed and recoil to relate it to other people . The 38 ranged from 110-158g and all but 2 were under 800 FPS, Underwood has a +p 125g 6-section god dot that made 1061 FPS and the Buffalo Bore 158g made 926 FPS, both stout loads. The BB is in my gun and the Underwood in speed strips. I don't want the bare lead in my pocket. I will chrono the Speer 135g short barrel when it comes in. If it is up to speed and comfortable to shoot, I'll use it, as well as reload to match, for practice. If not, I may switch to 9mm. I'm testing some Underwood out of an LCR 9mm this afternoon if I can get to the range early enough.
EDIT, I understand that there is a 357 Speer short barrel round, but I know little of it. Maybe more suited to k or n frames.

 

[Muss Muggins]

That 649 ought to handle a fairly steady diet of +P. Most people don't because of the cost . . .

 

[Texas Star]

Ditto the Speer. Additionally, their 135g short barrel bullet has 7 expanding sections for this application, apparently aa aid to low-speed expansion. You can always identify them this way. The rest that I know of have 6. I've tested various name brand 38/357 defense rounds in the last month for speed as well as felt recoil in my 340PD, about half the weight of your 649. As for the 3 357 rounds (1046-1174 FPS), I don't choose to carry them, and never planned to. I was just curious about speed and recoil to relate it to other people . The 38 ranged from 110-158g and all but 2 were under 800 FPS, Underwood has a +p 125g 6-section god dot that made 1061 FPS and the Buffalo Bore 158g made 926 FPS, both stout loads. The BB is in my gun and the Underwood in speed strips. I don't want the bare lead in my pocket. I will chrono the Speer 135g short barrel when it comes in. If it is up to speed and comfortable to shoot, I'll use it, as well as reload to match, for practice. If not, I may switch to 9mm. I'm testing some Underwood out of an LCR 9mm this afternoon if I can get to the range early enough.
EDIT, I understand that there is a 357 Speer short barrel round, but I know little of it. Maybe more suited to k or n frames.

Lists at just 990 FPS from a snub .357. Prob. gives about 1050 from a three-inch bbl. I hope to try some in my three-inch SP-101.

 

[shouldazagged]

I carry Buffalo Bore standard-pressure 158 grain LSWCHP-GC (gas checked), which from a two-inch barrel has been clocked almost identical to the older Remington +P FBI load. Uses reduced-flash powder.

I'd like to try the Speer Short Barrel stuff, just haven't yet. For a while years ago I carried Remington's 125 grain +P Golden Saber, recommended by a cop friend.

I'm not sure that it makes an enormous difference at halitosis range, but I just like a heavy bullet.

 

[Texas Star]

Modern 125 grain personal defense bullets in factory 38+P loads easily exceed 800 fps from a 2" barrel and expand to .65 caliber. ANY .38spl revolver will handle a cylinder-full of +P's with aplomb.

I don't read articles and ask experts to form my opinions. I've necropsied way too many warm-blooded creatures of various sizes to think there's anything better than an expanding bullet for stopping a heart.

Mike-

I think many of us would love to know specific results, listed by species, weight, organs struck, ranges, guns used, and barrel lengths, etc.

You seem to have more field experience than most here, and sharing that would be of great interest to many here.

I'd rather know what a bullet does to a coyote, big raccoon, deer, etc. than what it does in gelatin with denim draped on it. But the gelatin tests are relatively uniform, and do have a useful tale to tell.

In snub and three-inch barrels, I use Speer's Short Barrel. In longer barrels, I use their non Short Barrel 125 grain load or the lead HP Plus P rounds from Federal or Remington.

However, some recent production of Federal's No. 38G load has had uncrimped bullets. I avoid those, but if you order ammo by mail, you may get some. And Remington has reduced velocity in their load like that. I no longer buy it, or many other Rem. products.

I think Gold Dot is the best current JHP technology, and do not go below 125 grains weight in .38 and .357 ammo.

If you use a .357 with a barrel at least three inches, try Winchester's 145 grain Silvertip. A detective here checked autopsy results in the Dallas-Ft. Worth Metroplex and found that it worked, in his squeamish words, almost too well. That's what I want from such a load on felons or dangerous animals.

 

[pittpa]

You say "no offense", then proceed to deliberately offend by reducing a fellow member's researched and considered opinion to parroting shill articles in gun rags; I guess we know how much meaningful information you bring to the discussion.

Sounds like you're stuck at whatever point in history you found something you liked and decided to stay put; that's fine, but you may want to hold fire when the subjects you haven't kept up with are on the table.

Amusing that you open with deriding gun magazines as a source of information, and close with pointing to one to support your position.

My own research goes way beyond gun mags. So far, I plan to go with Speer short barrel 38. I've got old stuff and new stuff. If you are going to carry a 38 load, you owe it to yourself to avail yourself of the research others have done. I'm still planning on carrying new stuff, after I test it myself for performance and consistency. Trust, but verify.

 

[diyj98]

I normally find a load that shoots to point of aim and put that and accuracy above worrying about the various penetration/expansion tests. It might be a 125 grain jhp load or it could be a 158 grain lhpswc load.