.38 vs .357 for stopping power...

[bobsleatherworks]

Hello,

I'm on the fence about whether or not to stay with my Model 457 .45ACP as a carry gun...which even as a compact 3 1/2" 7 shot semi-auto, is still a serious hunk of steel to carry on a belt unless its hanging in the shoulder holster I made for it.

Currently the above mentioned gun is on its way to S&W for a repair since it was not functioning correctly 100% of the time.

And, I'm wondering if I should just return to "keep it simple" and get a carry revolver. If I stumble on a .44 special Model 696, there would be no question. I made a compact slide holster for this gun for a man and basically fell in love with the gun while I had it in my possession.

But, if I go to a revolver, I'm likely to go to either a .357 Model 65 or a .38 Model 64 with a 3 inch barrel. I just located a 65-5 in a pawn shop for $430. And so, the question comes up:

In the hopefully not going to happen but never-the less could happen one day scenario, if you hit an assailant center mass ONE TIME with either a .38 JHP or a .357 JHP will you get a significant difference in stopping power from the .357...or, will the .38 do the job just fine?

BTW...are both the Model 64 and 65 +P guns?

Thanks!

 

[SirIsaacNewton]

Hello,

I'm on the fence about whether or not to stay with my Model 457 .45ACP as a carry gun...which even as a compact 3 1/2" 7 shot semi-auto, is still a serious hunk of steel to carry on a belt unless its hanging in the shoulder holster I made for it.

Currently the above mentioned gun is on its way to S&W for a repair since it was not functioning correctly 100% of the time.

And, I'm wondering if I should just return to "keep it simple" and get a carry revolver. If I stumble on a .44 special Model 696, there would be no question. I made a compact slide holster for this gun for a man and basically fell in love with the gun while I had it in my possession.

But, if I go to a revolver, I'm likely to go to either a .357 Model 65 or a .38 Model 64 with a 3 inch barrel. I just located a 65-5 in a pawn shop for $430. And so, the question comes up:

In the hopefully not going to happen but never-the less could happen one day scenario, if you hit an assailant center mass ONE TIME with either a .38 JHP or a .357 JHP will you get a significant difference in stopping power from the .357...or, will the .38 do the job just fine?

BTW...are both the Model 64 and 65 +P guns?

Thanks!

Both are +P. Well 65 is a .357 mag and can shoot .38+p and the 64 is .38 which can shoot .38 +P as well.

I always reference this with cartridge selection. Notice his first comment that placement is essential and therefore training is the most important variable in the equation.

Ammunition For The Self-Defense Firearm

By the way I am by no means an expert there are guys on this forum who could probably write books on .38 special +p vs. .357 magnum.

 

[fyimo]

I wouldn't want to be shot with either and I certainly don't feel under gunned with a 38 special. The 357 is more potent but well placed 38 special rounds will also do the job. In the summer I carry a model 36 in 38 special and I'm fine with that.

 

[7shooter]

I agree with the importance of shot placement. There was a recent homicide in a trailer park in my town where there was a physical altercation between two card players where in the course of the fight one man pulled a .25 auto from his pocket and placed it in contact with his opponents chest killing him with one shot. You've probably heard the joke about the .25 that if you shoot someone with it and they find out about it they will be really mad. In this case it was a one shot stop.

 

[j38]

I would buy the 3" Model 65 as it can shoot either the .38+P- or a variety of .357 cartridges. (I think you mentioned the 65 had a 3" tube in another post - right?).

Good luck with your decision, ... and you can't really go wrong with either revolver choice.

Jerry

 

[signsrup]

Bob,
The 357's stopping power with 125 grain slugs is nothing short of spectacular. It comes in at the top of most studies.

However, there have been great strides made in the last few years as far as 38 carry ammo is concerned. While even the 38+p's are well below most 357 loads in terms of energy, the power of the 357 comes with a price. The magnums will generally be flashier, and slower to follow up with additional shots.

I feel well armed with either.

There are many postings on this very subject in the ammo sub-forum.

P.S. If weight is your main concern, you won't be saving much, if any, with a K frame.

Eric

 

[Snowbandit]

The .357 Magnum is still king of the one shot stops. The 45 ACP, and everything else, is no better than second place. My 340 is loaded with +P 38's most of the time and I'm fine with that. The automatics are locked in the safe and revolvers rule around here.

 

[bubbajoe45]

The .357 Magnum is still king of the one shot stops. The 45 ACP, and everything else, is no better than second place.

'It comes in at the top of most studies.'


Gentlemen, I respectfully take exception with these statements. The referenced article paraphrases Mas Ayoob's work, at best. Mr. Ayoob is careful to caveat the .357s prowess with the fact that it has been used in a statistically overwelming number of shootings and therefore garners the top spot principally by virtue of that fact. His stated preference is for the .45 ACP, also a proven manstopper (just not as widely utilized). Don't get me wrong, the .357 is certainly effective and proven to be so, but the .44 Magnum is not 'second place' to it in killing power (though it's rarely used in cop & robber shootings where most of the data comes from). You must keep in mind that cops carried and used .357s from the late 30s through the early 80s - it became as ubiquitous as the .40 is today.

For the OP, I would recommend you consider an alloy or polymer framed .45 ACP (a sig or smith, if you like DA autos; maybe a Kahr?). If the simplicity of a revolver is really the issue, look into Model 625s, 325s, or 22s in .45. If you have already made up your mind, get the Model 65. It can shoot both and .38 Spl has come a long way (still not a .45 ACP or .44 Spl). If a 696 is really what you want, don't wait to stumble onto one - go find one (Auction Arms.com or Gunbroker.com, etc.). signsrup is correct about the weight - if the 457 is too heavy, the Model 65 will probably be also. Consider the 396 NG - a lighter 5-shot .44 Special. You might be able to find a deal on a used one on Gunbroker (or here). On a budget? look at the Charter Arms Bulldog. JMHO

 

[Robert B]

38+P Speer short barrel load

The above round is what I carry in my J frame. I used to think that I had to use 357's in a two inch barrel. I then found the gel testing for the above load. It penetrates 11 inches through all barriers except for dry wall which is 10 inches. I don't think I'll ever have to shoot through dry wall so I say 11 inches through any barrier that I would come up against. The above round has also had excellent street results in LAPD and NYPD. It also is a pleasure to shoot from my 642. 357's out of a J frame does not allow for quick follow up shots. I had this experience with my old M&P360 that I sold. I train with double taps, and would not count on any one shot stops. I think you should consider an airweight J frame with the 38+P's above because you would seriously cut down on your carry weight.

 

[pinkymingeo]

If you want sure stopping power, carry a Louisville Slugger. Handguns are notoriously unreliable for self-defense, but they conceal better than a big rock. Arguing over "stopping power" is silly. A handgun is good for slowing or discouraging an assailant so you can make yourself scarce. The data show you can't expect anything better.

 

[IraIII]

I found a neat site that helps address this.
Ballistics by the inch
On this site they compare velocities of different calibers and loads from multiple barrel lengths. If you look at 9mm and 357 from a short barrel the velocity is about equal, but 357 is much faster from longer barrels as powder is not burned up in short barrels, resulting in lots of flash and muzzle blast. 357 and 9mm are close from a snubby, but 38 special is somewhat lower in velocity, and thus energy. That being said 38 special is a very effective cartridge, when loaded with newer bullet styles, and powders.

 

[79ipa]

hmmm

I think that you can get more power than you need out of a 2 inch .357. Double tap lists a 125 to 1425 which is plenty.

 

[18DAI]

Either the 64 or 65 will serve your needs. I have both, and shoot and carry the 64 more......probably due to its bobbed hammer being easier on my coat liners.

The only place 38 special isn't deadly is on the internet. Good luck with your decision! Regards 18DAI.

 

[gunlovingirl]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Practice practice practice. I think your question depends on you, your abilities, which is more comfortable for you to shoot, etc etc. Some folks aren't comfortable with the .357. It can be harder to get back on target for a 2nd shot and downright painful to shoot. But you don't need me to tell you all this. The one benefit I see in the .357, is the ability to shoot both .38 and .357. My opinion, which is worth what you're paying for it, is that a well placed hit with a good .38 self defense load is a decent carry round.

 

[roaddog28]

If I were to carry here is my choice. M65 3 inch loaded with LSWCHP +P 38 special in either Winchester, Remington and Buffalo Bore. This round is rated one of the best in self defense rounds. The M65 can shoot 357 or 38s so if you have to have a 357 round I would recommend Remingtons Golden Saber 125G HP. This is a medium power round that has less recoil than the full house 357 round. I am not a light weight revolver fan. The M65 is strong enough and also will have less felt recoil than the light weight revolver. How much is the M65 or the M64? You might look around again in the used market. A Ruger Speed Six 2 3/4 barrel is actually stronger than the S&W 65. Its a 357 revolver so you can shoot either 357s or 38 specials. I believe the strongest small revolver on the market is the Ruger SP101. Again, a 357/38 revolver that is steel but smaller than the M65 K frame Smith. A lot of gun experts agree that the Ruger SP101 is stronger than the Smith K frame. I hope this helps in your decision.

Regards,
roaddog28

 

[BillyWayne]

I carry 357 mag, 38 special, 357 Sig, and 327 mag. My wife likes the 327 mag and 38 special. I reload and shoot often. I have done my own basic penetration testing. I would not want to be hit with any one. I feel comfortable carrying any of them. Today they make bullets specific for the application and this really helps.

 

[ENGINE18]

Ah, the never-ending saga of what is better. Accuracy, accuracy, accuracy! Even a major league baseball player can go to the Hall hitting .300!

 

[Pioneer461]

If someone is trying to kill you, why would you not want to defend yourself with the most powerful weapon available?

Don't count on any handgun, of any caliber, to guarantee one shot stops. Too many variables to rely on just one bullet.

 

[Pilgrim]

if the 457 is too heavy, the Model 65 will probably be also.

If weight is your main concern, you won't be saving much, if any, with a K frame.

This.

Also the 457 will carry better as it's 'flatter' and will hug the body better.

Me thinks you just want something new, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you know what you had and what you're going to.

 

[Stu Honea]

The 64 and 65 are both great defense revolvers. Never count on anything to achieve the one shot stop myth.It happens,but it's foolish to count on it with any caliber of handgun. Placement and repeat hits are in your best interest.
It's personal preference,revolver or auto,but these days my wheel guns are mostly relegated to the backup role unless I'm feeling particularly frisky and invincable. I will,however,not turn down a good buy on a revo like the one you mentioned.
As someone else suggested,a lighter alloy frame .45 would probably solve your discomfort issues with carry,and there are many acceptable ones on the market that will give you a lifetime of good service with proper maintenance.