.38 vs .357 for stopping power...

[STCM(SW)]

Only thing I would add is a .452 bullet always makes a big hole.
And I love a .357 revolver.
Placement of shot IS the main concern......
A hit in the CNS with any bullet will disable any critter or rat no matter how many legs it has...

 

[Old cop]

Lots of excellent info here but I can only go on personal experience. During my 30 yr. LEO career I had the unfortunate experience to be involved in more than one duty related shooting, every time using the .38 +P FBI round. It just works, but shot placement is king and do not count on a one shot stop, that is pretty much a myth.

In retirement I continue to carry a J frame .38 w/confidence, you could do a lot worse.

 

[M2MikeGolf]

So, back to the OPs original question.....

There can be lots of debate over the question of .38 special vs. .357 Magnum, and their relation to .45 ACP as a defence weapon. I won't continue the opening of Pandora's box with my opinions on which is best and why. As you can see, there will be a lot of opinions and analysis. I am very fond of .45 ACP, but I don't see that it has any big advantage over .357 in performance, size, options or anything else to restrict yourself to it.

Here's sort of a simplisitic view of it, in the Army we used to say "K.I.S.S" (keep it simple, stupid) and often that really works. With that idea in mind, I would opt for the model 65 for the simple fact that you can fire either .38 special (to include +P) or .357 magnum through it, and so have your choice of two cartridges and still stay at least equal (or more, considering your point of view on the comparison) with .45 ACP. I think that sounds like a good price for a 65 that you have found, too. Plus, I really like K-Frames and Model 65s

Seriously, I think the 65 would be a good do-all and not a compromise. Nothing wrong with the 64 or 457, but the 65 would give you "best of both worlds". And remember it's JMHO.

 

[KLYDE]

I'm going on memory, and that is a risky thing to do for a man of my age-- but here it goes.

Several years ago I watched a police cruiser video of a South Carolina Highway Patrolman in a gunfight with a drug runner. The bad guy survived a total of 6 hits from the officer's .357 revolver. He returned fire from his pocket .22 (or .25) handgun. The round entered the inner aspect of the officer's arm, about midway along the bicep. The bullet struck the bone and traveled into the chest cavity, severing his aorta. I could hear the officer dying as he called dispatch for help. He was dead before backup arrived.

There are several lessons to be learned from this horrid event. One is that the bullet must destroy, or disrupt something that the body considers vital to its existence. Eliminating blood flow to the brain, or destroying the central nervous system seem to be the most effective way to stop an individual.

If you have a round that will penetrate deeply enough to reach something vital, then accuracy is the most significant variable that should be of concern to you.

Good Luck,
whw

WHW, I also viewed that video during a training session about 15 years ago. The perp was a rather large guy. Not a drug runner but a DUI suspect, IIRC. The weapon was a .22 magnum deringer. Six shots from the Troopers .357 hit the mark. The perp was down and the trooper was standing near the back of his cruiser calling for backup when the perp got off the fatal shot while laying on the ground.

Just goes to show that no guarantees with any caliber.

 

[Old Corp]

Lots of excellent info here but I can only go on personal experience. During my 30 yr. LEO career I had the unfortunate experience to be involved in more than one duty related shooting, every time using the .38 +P FBI round. It just works, but shot placement is king and do not count on a one shot stop, that is pretty much a myth.

In retirement I continue to carry a J frame .38 w/confidence, you could do a lot worse.

And here's just another example of widely-varying results. My 'similar screen name retired brother badge wearer' had the experience he related. I had another. We were both in LE for 30 years.

In 1982 I was involved in an incident where a deranged individual that I was serving an arrest warrant on attacked me with a butcher knife. Quickly deciding that I really wanted to go home that day, I did my best to not let him succeed. But, I had nowhere to go, as there was nothing but a flight of stairs behind me.
Duty weapon was the S&W M66 4" and the issued/approved round was the S&W-brand (yep, THAT dates me) .38 Spl. +P 125 gr. JHP.
Two rounds in the sternum had all the effect of tossing cotton balls at him. Two more followed. Still coming. (yes, it was indeed like a bad dream...) As he turned slightly, #5 struck left bicep.
I was getting worried.
#6, and 'last' I figured, was just over bridge-of-nose.
That was the only one that worked and ended the attack.

I found out much later that inside the rented room was a loaded Mauser 98k 8mm rifle.
Also, many years later I got a chance to see the recovered bullets that were retrieved during autopsy. They were all perfectly expanded and could have been in an ammo advertisement. #6 was partially fragmented.

SO - for many years I would not carry a .38 Spl. on 'my time'. I violated policy and toted either a .357 or 1911 .45.

My life is much less exciting now, and yes, I do carry a .38 occasionally, with Speer GD's.

There's very few hard and fast facts about what will work and with what regularity. Just too many variables.

 

[Old cop]

Try this with your CCW choice: Put a standard size paper plate out to about 3 yards. Load your weapon w/your chosen defense round then empty the gun at the target, shooting as fast as you can. If all your rounds stay on the plate you're in good shape w/respect to follow-up shots and your ability to defend yourself

One shots stops are mostly a myth and you continue shooting until your attacker falls, and then reload and keep a close eye on him until help arrives.

 

[moe l.]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Practice practice practice. I think your question depends on you, your abilities, which is more comfortable for you to shoot, etc etc. Some folks aren't comfortable with the .357. It can be harder to get back on target for a 2nd shot and downright painful to shoot. But you don't need me to tell you all this. The one benefit I see in the .357, is the ability to shoot both .38 and .357. My opinion, which is worth what you're paying for it, is that a well placed hit with a good .38 self defense load is a decent carry round.

What he said.

 

[moe l.]

What he said.

Oops - sorry - what SHE said....

 

[AveragEd]

One very important factor that no one has, to my knowledge, mentioned so far is penetration. I have never had to, hope I never have to and never expect to have to shoot another human being. But I think that for most of us, if/when that situation presents itself, the last thing we would want to do is injure or kill an innocent bystander in the course of defending ourselves. High-penetration rounds like magnums can do that.

Imagine you have an intruder in your home who has given you reason to fear for your life or the lives of your family. With a high-velocity magnum round, you will have one chance to subdue that intruder because in a dark, closed-in environment, one shot with a .357 or .44 Magnum will leave you deafened and blinded by its muzzle blast and flash. And if that bullet did not hit something very solid in that intruder, it will have passed through him/her and into and perhaps through whatever is behind him/her.

Roll that image around in your head for a moment.

A chronograph is a valuable tool for handloaders - I cannot begin the count the benefits I gain from mine. But they are also valuable to gun owners who do not handload because chronographs cannot be swept up by the romance, emotion and excitement surrounding magnum cartridges. Running high-performance handgun cartridges fired in a short-barreled firearm like the typical handgun, particularly the snub-nosed ones so much in vogue today, over a chrono will leave you feeling quite vulnerable and used when you see how short they fall of their advertised muzzle velocity.

More practical handgun rounds like the .38 Special and .45ACP live up their ratings and in actuality, some can come pretty close to the magnums in barrels of four inches or less. And they do it without nearly as much chance of over-penetration in the longer handgun barrels and with far less muzzle blast and flash, thus allowing better follow-up shots if needed.

Let's face it, there probably aren't many of us without a law enforcement background who could enter into such a confrontation without a huge case of the jitters and yips. Under such conditions, placing one shot perfectly likely isn't going to happen. Accordingly, placing all your eggs in that one over-penetrating basket may not be a wise move.

Ed

 

[David LaPell]

Assuming that you can shoot the short barreled .45 ACP well, at say even 7 yards then you should be able to handle the recoil of a short barreled .357 Magnum. I would get one of the short barreled K frame .357's because you can shoot either .357 or a .38 Special +P from it. As far as one shot stops, its like someone telling you to buy a deer rifle in a certain caliber because he dropped a deer in its tracks with it. I have shot deer with 16 gauge slugs before and had them collapse on the spot and run off, neither were hit any hit any worse, one had a hole through both lungs and the offside shoulder was busted and it ran 50 yards, the other dropped with a hit in the spine and a blown up right lung. Both died and were equally well hit. To try and buy a caliber because one shot put some guy down instantly doesn't mean if you needed it the guy you happen to shoot is going down any faster. It's like the stock market, past results don't guarantee future outcomes. That being said, I am a huge fan of the .357 Magnum but I have no problem with a .38 Special +P. My advice to you is to use whatever one you shoot the best. As Bill Jordan once said, "Speed's fine but accuracy is final!"

 

[MH8675309]

I used a 32 revolver once to slaughter a pig and it just made a hole in the pigs head. The pig didnt even act like it was shot. I grabbed a 22 and shot it and it dropped right there. Although I wouldnt want to be shot with a 32 I never looked at that caliber quite the same,,

 

[mickeyblueyes]

Lots of answers here, but this is fact, out of a 2 inch barrel a 357 can not generate any more power than a 38+p. it's proven and written. I don't care what you care or shoot I have no skin in the game, if my bad back allowed me I would carry a small .45 auto with bonded ammo. Other than that would be a 38 158 grain +p or a hollow point wad cutter , third choice is a 380 packed hot with hard cast 95 grin lead.


Don't get me wrong 9mm are great as are 40sw, but with a SW 642 no hammer you can shoot threw a pocket. A LCP is sightless.

A .45 acp with bonded well that just takes the edge off.

 

[moe l.]

I have always liked the idea of a sudden beam from a 500 or 800 lumen flashlight, THEN the bullet of your choice. Your object does not tend to move around much after being blinded. And you can blind someone in daylight with either of these.

 

[4x4moses]

Location! Location! location!

I'm going on memory, and that is a risky thing to do for a man of my age - DITTO!

At the risk of sounding foolish, I'm going to add my two-cents worth. When I was in the police academy, we were told that professional hit-men actually prefer a .22 cal weapon - for many reasons (easy to conceal, not too loud, accurate, deadly, etc.). If that is/was true, that would reinforce what many have said: BULLET PLACEMENT IS CRUCIAL TO SURVIVING AN ARMED ENCOUNTER! Although I carried a .357 magnum (125gr JHP) for many years as a police officer, I recommend the .38 special for most concealed carry/self-defense purposes. A snub-nose .38, with standard 158gr SJHP or FMJ is a dependable, controllable answer for most users. I truly love the power and intimidation factor of my M66-2; but it stays in the safe while my M36 snubby goes everywhere I do.

 

[DR505]

Their current service gun comes from Springfield Armory (I know - boo!) and has a special serial number starting with CRG which stands for "close range group."

This is incorrect. The CRG portion of the serial number reflects the fact that all FBI SWAT teams fall under the "Critical Incident Response Group" at FBI-HQ, commonly referred to as CIRG (pronounced sirg, with a hard G). The serial number only used three of the four letters of the acronym.

 

[kamloops67]

I used a 32 revolver once to slaughter a pig and it just made a hole in the pigs head. The pig didnt even act like it was shot. I grabbed a 22 and shot it and it dropped right there. Although I wouldnt want to be shot with a 32 I never looked at that caliber quite the same,,

sometimes stuff happens..years ago back on the farm my dad and i were getting ready to butcher some steers, same as we did every year ,he was pulling out a 22 rifle to dispatch the critter when i asked dad why dont you use your 45?he had a blackhawk with 4 5/8 barrel and some hot hand loads so he figured ok try it out ... the first shot was in the forehead ,right between the eyes and up an inch, well that steer just kinda looked surprised lowered his head maybe 2 inches and locked his legs standing in the corral with stream of blood shooting from his forehead that reminded me of a garden hose turned on about halfway, 4-5 more shots and the thing finally went down.
a couple months ago i reminded my father of that day i told him that the steer was probably dead after the first shot and he replied "no way! it sure looked alive to me ,ill never trust a handgun again!" in fact he wont even use a 22 on steers anymore, he goes straight to his mod 700 7mm mag.
my dad is/was a hardass but this one bothered him.

 

[silentflyer]

There are some links to Skeeter Shelton and Bill Jordan on here that go through the .38/.357 points.

 

[bsms]

Lots of answers here, but this is fact, out of a 2 inch barrel a 357 can not generate any more power than a 38+p. it's proven and written...

Incorrect.

New Page 1

You can get an extra couple of hundred feet per second. If the bullet is designed to expand at 800 fps, and many are, then the difference between 800 and 1000 fps is a better probability of expansion.

Buffalo Bore's heavy 38+P gives a 158 grain bullet 1040 from a 2" barrel and 1143 from a 3" barrel. Their heavy 357 using a 3" barrel - the shortest they show - gives 1398. I doubt the loss of an inch would cost you nearly 400 fps.

 

[390ish]

I takes a lot of time and practice to do well with a 2.5" 357 mag. I shot a 4" K frame for a few years and then bought a very, very nice 19-3 in 357. It is a handful and the magna grips squirm in my hands, but I am working on it. It is not a carry gun for me.

I am not going to put some awful looking grips on that gun and have not gotten around to trying a Tyler-T grip. I think that if a person can carry a 4" barrelled gun a 357 is the natural choice. Anything shorter than that, I lean toward the j-frame 38 special.

I really think there is something to establishing a rhytm in shooting, a cadence in running through the cylinder. I have done it for a long time and it gets the rounds down range in at a good speed and in an accurate manner. I have not been to a bunch of schools that teach tactics, but I do believe a person under stress will likely revert to what he usually does when shooting. The name of the game in protecting yourself is to put lead on the target until it stops. Having a different shooting scenario for multiple situations might work if that is how you earn a living and practice every day, but for most folks I think it just confuses what they are trying to accomplish in practicing to defend themselves.

I can still shoot a Glock 29 better than the 19-3 for practical purposes, but I don't carry either. The 442 is just right for me. I cast a pile of 158 swc from a six banger lee mould and can get in a lot of practice for next to nothing. I carry what I practice with and don't feel undergunned.

 

[Dave T]

With that said, a higher velosity round gives up its advantage simply because the speed does not allow the bullet to perform at the optimum level that it was designed for (expansion and transfer of kinetic energy).

I'm not trying to give you a hard time but the above part of your post makes no sense. You don't have to wait for a 357 Magnum bullet to get a certain distance away from you before it will expand properly or penetrate sufficiently. If the bullet is properly designed it will work from right out of the muzzle to as far as it retains sufficient velocity for expansion.

And unrelated to the above point, I've always wondered about this claim that the 38 Special is more effective than it used to be because of improved bullet designs and materials available today. And then you will hear in the same discussion that the "FBI load" is the most effective (has the best street record for stopping) round and it is loaded with a lead SWC-HP. That's sure not very high tech now is it?

Dave