.38 vs .357 for stopping power...

[Chris L.]

When top flight service calibers are mentioned, .38+P ain't one of them. It's more commonly compared with the greatest manstopping round, by far, of all time, the .380. Do I believe the .38+P is better than a .380? Sure, but at the same time, the comparison isn't made for no reason.

Standard pressure .38spl is often compared to the .380acp, and even that generally outperforms it. I don't know of any knowledgeable experts who would claim with a straight face that .380acp. is comparable to a good .38+P.

 

[Chris L.]

If you want sure stopping power, carry a Louisville Slugger. Handguns are notoriously unreliable for self-defense, but they conceal better than a big rock. Arguing over "stopping power" is silly. A handgun is good for slowing or discouraging an assailant so you can make yourself scarce. The data show you can't expect anything better.

It's comments like these that discourage people from having a proper respect for firearms. The OP makes it sound as if they little better then paintball guns. The truth is, handguns can be VERY deadly and destructive. I saw a documentary once were they were rebuilding this kids skull, of which nearly half had been blow away by a .357 mag.

No thanks, I'll take my chances with my gun against the Louisville slugger.

 

[David LaPell]

The only time I have ever had to use or had the opportunity to use a .357 on a live animal was when this time last year I dispatched a 4 point buck I hit with my jeep. I had my Model 27 with a 3 1/2 inch barrel loaded with a 160 grain #358156 SWC and 12.5 grains of 2400, far from a max load. The deer was messed up but still alive and I parked one of those bullets in the neck about four inches below the jaw line. The bullet shattered the spine, and went right out the other side and kept right on going. The deer was dead right there. Earlier this year I shot a woodchuck with my Smith 649, same bullet just at a lower speed coming from the .38 Special. That chuck took a few minutes to die even though it was shot behind the skull at the base of the neck and out the front blowing a pretty big hole in it. So what can we gather from this? No two incidents are the same and you shouldn't buy a gun and caliber based on one instance in one place at one time. Just because one bad guy collapsed like a sack of hammers on the pavement doesn't mean the next guy will if shot with the exact same bullet even if in the exact same place.
Buy a gun on how well you can shoot it and where you put the rounds consistently. There was an old saying once, a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44.

 

[Chris L.]

Lots of answers here, but this is fact, out of a 2 inch barrel a 357 can not generate any more power than a 38+p. it's proven and written.

Not a fact and not proven: New Page 1

Although if you asked me if the benefits of a .357 in a snubbie outweigh the negatives, I would answer with a resounding no.

 

[srings]

I have nothing to add. Just wanted to say that I love the knowledge being dropped in this post. Freaking awesome. Thanks all for sharing. Some really freaking good stuff here! I have so much to learn it's not even funny, but am enjoying the journey.

 

[Delos]

The subject has been covered very well here. Let me try to say it slightly differently.

When I was young everyone was talking bad about the little M1 Carbine rifle and talking enthusiastically about the .357 pistol. (Goofy - except for the nice variety of bullets available for the .357)

One shot stops can be worded differently. A .357 under 8 (?) inches long makes so much noise and blast of fire after dark at close range (when most shootings happen) many people have no doubt fainted. I would place money that fainting would be considered a one shot stop by some secretaries.

No doubt - as the police trainers tell stories about bystanders being accidentally shot, often showing movies, one shot stops happen more often.

If someone has religious like confidence in his firearm he or she is less likely to fire in bursts.

The first people doing one-shot stop statistics were doing them back when it was still legal to shoot fleeing felons (or almost anyone fleeing from a crime scene after yelling halt?). They cocked their revolvers back then, for a good shot.

Nowadays some of the people shot might have been in a narcotics raid and perhaps a stun grenade had just exploded indoors?

Whatever you can shoot fastest and bestus with is the right gun. The first to hit anywhere often wins. The (sometimes temporary) stun effect of first hit is important. Except the number of super aggressive young crazies and criminals on crack cocaine is very high in some parts of big cities.

When I am fishing I carry hooks and poles for what I expect to catch.
I like 45 auto because the bullet is big and the case holds a lot of powder at a lower pressure. But what I most often carry is a variety of shells in my 38 special revolver. Right this minute my house gun has two heavy & slow round nose lead bullets first, and three lighter and faster silvertip hollowpoints next. Next time I get a box of target wadcutters one of them will be loaded in first chamber to come up.

My old High Standard double action .22 magnum rimfire derringer has hiked more miles in forest or desert than any other of my guns - but if I choose to shoot a rattlesnake with it I might as well be throwing rocks. Whichever, they leave the area quickly but can come back after dark if mice are around. Snoring might help keep them away from camp. Any Smith & Wesson revolver or .22 auto is very adequate, but how many guns does one want to carry. A nice quiet 38 target wadcutter can be a nice first round in a J Frame 357, for rattlesnake areas. When you go back down the trail the rattlesnake will likely still be there, waiting to ambush the mouse he smells that also uses that trail. If your dog is running out in front of you it might be a problem. Shoot the rattler for your dog. Use a 38 wadcutter for your ears.

 

[DR505]

Not much to add to this thread...it has been stated well already; shot placement is the most important factor. I've been at many homicides and attempted murders in my time. No two are ever alike. Two contrasting scenes I've been to: a large young man gets shot with one .380 ACP, the bullet ricochets off his collar bone and travels down into his chest cavity, hitting his heart and major blood vessels...he dies before he hits the ground. Second scene, an average sized man is attempting to ward off two home invaders (home owner is using a bat) and is shot four times in the upper chest with a .38 Special, standard pressure. All of the bullets lodge in his pectoral muscles (he was strong for his size!) and he lives to testify. I've seen survivors of .45 ACP gun shots and those killed by a single .22 short. Placement was the key.

That being said, I would opt for the "most powerful" (however you define that) caliber with which I can hit my target multiple times consistently and quickly.

 

[18DAI]

And regardless of what you are carrying, 38 or 357 - don't forget - anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Regards 18DAI

 

[MH8675309]

sometimes stuff happens..years ago back on the farm my dad and i were getting ready to butcher some steers, same as we did every year ,he was pulling out a 22 rifle to dispatch the critter when i asked dad why dont you use your 45?he had a blackhawk with 4 5/8 barrel and some hot hand loads so he figured ok try it out ... the first shot was in the forehead ,right between the eyes and up an inch, well that steer just kinda looked surprised lowered his head maybe 2 inches and locked his legs standing in the corral with stream of blood shooting from his forehead that reminded me of a garden hose turned on about halfway, 4-5 more shots and the thing finally went down.
a couple months ago i reminded my father of that day i told him that the steer was probably dead after the first shot and he replied "no way! it sure looked alive to me ,ill never trust a handgun again!" in fact he wont even use a 22 on steers anymore, he goes straight to his mod 700 7mm mag.
my dad is/was a hardass but this one bothered him.

Thats an interesting story. There have been a few times where my shot placement was off (pigs and steers have small brains - there aint much to shoot at) but a 22 has enough punch to effectively scramble their brain. And, thats all were really trying to do since it allows for a better bleed out than if you straight out kill it with a big rifle. A freind of mine got a new barrel to burn trash and decided he'd use his 9 mil to put a few ventilation holes in it. It would not penetrate the barrel. He ran and got his 22 and it went through both sides of the barrel. First time I ever saw a pig stunned by a 22 I never looked at that caliber quite the same either.

 

[David LaPell]

This brings to mind a shooting we had our way about three years back. Some drunk decided to shoot up his ex-girlfriends house by firing six .357 125 grain JHP's (I was able to see some of the reports) through her front door, all went right out the other side of the mobile home (yep). He got in his truck and drove off on a slow speed chase for about twenty miles and then pulled over and decided to play QuickDraw McGraw with several cops. He was able to get two rounds off with his Colt Peacekeeper, one struck one deputy in the chest dead center of the vest, the other was hit in his pepper spray can which popped and gave the deputy shrapnel wounds in the side under his vest. Needless to say the guy lost and was hit over a dozen times with .45 ACP, .45 GAP (NYS Troopers gun's) and .223. He took several hits to the body but it the coroner figured it was the combination of a .223 and a .45 ACP to his head that ended it for him and he was dead when he hit dirt. Now that was with the legendary .45 ACP's reputation which is well earned. I have read the autopsy and there was no way this guy was essentially a dead man standing until the head shots put his lights out. It goes to show you that everyone is different and even with plenty of shots in the vitals this guy would have kept fighting. There is a reason cops are trained to fire more than one shot at a target. They don't believe in one shot stops either.

 

[John wilson]

.45 and .45+P

 

[Dave T]

John, if you're going to post something like that you need to accredit it to your source. Now I'm willing to bet, given the huge advantage given to light weight bullets in all the results, that comes from Marshall & Sanow. They've been dis-credited enough times, by enough knowledgable people so I don't have to go into it again. Let it suffice to say, that ain't the whole story.

Dave

 

[John wilson]

John, if you're going to post something like that you need to accredit it to your source. Now I'm willing to bet, given the huge advantage given to light weight bullets in all the results, that comes from Marshall & Sanow. They've been dis-credited enough times, by enough knowledgable people so I don't have to go into it again. Let it suffice to say, that ain't the whole story.

Dave

Hi Dave!
http://handloads.com/

 

[Florida J Frame]

The Speer 135Gr SB is missing from the charts. It seems to be the most widely accepted .38 by the major PDs in the country.

 

[TeeJay]

Perfect option - 357-38

Lots of responses here, but I thought it might be fun to add my $.02. First, briefly, I think the idea of "stopping power" is way too vague. If you hit a threat in the eye socket with a .22 - it will stop him. Hit the same threat with a .45 in the thigh, it may not. Which has more stopping power?
With that in mind, a .45 is a big *** carry, and a smaller, lighter revolver might be a good call. Easy answer - a .357 will fire .38 rounds, so cheaper ammo at the range, carry +p. The .357 is a very fast and penetrating load, so is pretty irresponsible to carry due to over-penetration and potential damage to unintended targets. JHP's will lessen the potential. Be safe.

 

[Recruit]

Man, there is more than a 2 1/2 year break in this thread and it picked up just as it started...lots of responses.

Good reading though. It's certainly evident both the 38 an the 357 have many followers and several with actual incidents. That says to me both are effective...perhaps one is just more effective.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

If someone is trying to kill you, why would you not want to defend yourself with the most powerful weapon available?

Because most of us can shoot something smaller with dramatically better accuracy. I'd rather be missed with a 44 than be hit with a 22LR. But that's just me.

 

[DR505]

John, if you're going to post something like that you need to accredit it to your source. Now I'm willing to bet, given the huge advantage given to light weight bullets in all the results, that comes from Marshall & Sanow. They've been dis-credited enough times, by enough knowledgable people so I don't have to go into it again. Let it suffice to say, that ain't the whole story.

Dave

Bingo. Though likely well-intentioned, Marshall and Sanow's research has been pretty thoroughly discredited.

The tables reproduced above are pointless. There is no cite, unless it is the "Handloads.Com" home page (and the info ain't there either). There are no definitions (such as the criteria for a "one shot stop"), there is no methodology described, no raw data was provided, etc. The tables are just a pretty waste of space.

 

[Rogue686]

When I carry concealed, I carry a j-frame 60-9 357 Magnum with some of the Hornady Critical Defense 125 gr. However, I have contemplated switching to some of the equivalent +P rounds, like what gunlovingirl said above.

It's all personal preference..if you really want one of those 696's...get it instead. Otherwise, I'm biased in favor of 357 magnum revolvers just for the option for the magnum loads or 38 special reloads for practice.

 

[walkin' trails]

Lets say a quality, well designed .38 Special bullet is fired accurately into the pump organ of an assailant. The bullet does its part, penetrates deep enough and expands and totally voids the warranty of the pump organ; but the assailant doesn't drop and keeps on coming at the intended victim. It is doubtful that a .45 ACP bullet, nor anything else placed accurately would have had any better effect. Every so called guru I've ever listed to or read their materials have stated that a handgun is a poor manstopper, and will not always work effectively all the time. Multiple, accurately placed shots and good tactics such as employment of failure to stop drills are what stops the fight. I've known of a couple of instances over the years where one shot stops ended stopped the fight: one was a headshot and the other was a gun shot from a 9mm Hydra Shok +P+. Of the latter, I would suspect that the location of the shot knocked the wind out of the attacker causing him to drop, not the "knock down" power of a +P+ 9mm. I've also heard of the proverbial drug addict who took multiple shots from 45s, 38s, 357s, 12 ga., etc. and continued to be a threat. If an assailant is determined, he/she may not go down like he/she's supposed to. The Miami FBI shootout was a prime example.

I like my 45, but have no problem with 40s, 9s, 357s, or even .38 Sp for self defense, and I can find no fault with you wanting to carry a 64 or 65 with a three inch barrel. You'd be well armed regardless of what caliber you load. The Speer short barrel loads are supposed to be pretty good, and I'd personally stay away from anything lighter than 125 grain. That is because I've noted that the lighter bullets with jacked up velocities to make them effective don't shoot as tight as the heavier .38s. Remember that the original .38 Special was designed around a 158 grain lead bullet, and most quality 38 revolvers will shoot point of aim with that bullet configuration or close to it.