.38 vs .357 for stopping power...

[firearmsunlimited]

I agree and disagree with some of the statements made by our illustrious members in this thread. In any event here is my two cents:
I've carried concealed for the past 35 years during which time I was involved in ballistics study and experimentation. Unquestionably at longer ranges a higher velosity cartridge like the .357 has a distinct advantage over .38 or even the .45. As it relates to self protection, however, FBI statistics gathered from state and local law enforcement sources indicates that the average distance in a self defense shooting is 17'. With that said, a higher velosity round gives up its advantage simply because the speed does not allow the bullet to perform at the optimum level that it was designed for (expansion and transfer of kinetic energy). A 38 special or 38 special + P will undoubtably perform at it optimum level at a distance of 17'. Accordingly, either .38 may be a fine choice for self defense. Another distinct advantage, as previously mentioned by others in this thread, is the comfort level with carrying a smaller piece. Personally I have found that my 338PD Air Lite Ti is a joy to carry. However, if you want to emulate what the FBI hostage rescue and SWAT teams current use you will be choosing a 45ACP as they abandon the .357 and .38 years ago. Their current service gun comes from Springfield Armory (I know - boo!) and has a special serial number starting with CRG which stands for "close range group." I tend to lean toward a wheel gun as I want it to go bang when I pull the trigger and not worry about clearing a stove pipe. So at the end of the day the deciding factor may well be carry comfort and what caliber you are the most proficient with.

 

[Dot_mdb]

Hello,

I'm on the fence about whether or not to stay with my Model 457 .45ACP as a carry gun...which even as a compact 3 1/2" 7 shot semi-auto, is still a serious hunk of steel to carry on a belt unless its hanging in the shoulder holster I made for it.

The 457 is not a hunk of steel but is an alloy framed semi-auto that weighs about the same or less than an 3" model 65. Fully loaded there might be a small weight advantage to the 65 because it shoots lighter weight bullets but it would be close.

I like revolvers for self-defense because I think that the snubbies can clear the holster and put lead on the target slightly faster than a semi, mostly because of the shape of the grip. I carry a Model 640 .38 special on most days and I think that covers me adequately for my level of risk. I do own a model 457 and I may carry that at times also but it has to fight for second place with my model 3913 which is slightly slimmer and lighter.

You really have to pick one and stick with it and practice with it until you have a good deal of confidence in the gun. Everyone of these weapons that have been mentioned are more than adequate to protect you if it comes to that.

Bill

 

[flop-shank]

As it relates to self protection, however, FBI statistics gathered from state and local law enforcement sources indicates that the average distance in a self defense shooting is 17'. With that said, a higher velosity round gives up its advantage simply because the speed does not allow the bullet to perform at the optimum level that it was designed for (expansion and transfer of kinetic energy). A 38 special or 38 special + P will undoubtably perform at it optimum level at a distance of 17'.

Pure BS. Bullet performance relies on a combination of weight, velocity and design. The .357 amassed an incredible reputation amongst street cops who's agencies carried it back in the late '70s when 125 gr. loads such as Federal and Remington offer hit the streets. The best .357 loads are absolutely ferocious at close range and lack nothing in energy delivery, or performance. In a podcast on proarms.podbean.com , veteran street cop and multiple gunfight winner Keith Jones goes into detail about the success his agency enjoyed when they switched from the .38 to the .357 after they geared their training to help their officers master the sharp crack and recoil of the .357. It was of interest that on average, more perps stopped when hit marginally with a .357, had to be shot less times, and ultimately more of them lived. IIRC, no officer had to shoot a perp more than twice to end hostilities. As others have said shot placement is the biggest factor and YMMV. I would also guess that the average police shootout is at ranges common to civilian CCW.

When top flight service calibers are mentioned, .38+P ain't one of them. It's more commonly compared with the greatest manstopping round, by far, of all time, the .380. Do I believe the .38+P is better than a .380? Sure, but at the same time, the comparison isn't made for no reason.

Has .38+P improved with bullet technology? Sure. Is it the best for most people? Probably and because most people will not put in the range time to master the .357, or perhaps for physical reasons cannot. Each of us has to decide which camp we fall in. In the end though, the .38+P ain't a .357.

Now .357 vs. .45? I don't think that there is a huge reason to expect one to out perform the other from standard service length barrels, given the better loads in each caliber are being used. However, a 3 1/2" .45 ain't standard length, the .45 is notorious for difficulty expanding from short tubes, and that's aside from the reliability issues that class of guns tends to display. Lighter, 185, or 200 grainish bullets may solve any expansion issues by boosting velocity. Myself, I would use a 5" gun, or switch calibers.

For a .357 gun (and I would get a .357 even if the plan is to run .38s) I would get an L frame for worry free use of 125 gr. .357 ammo. If you intend to use .38s, then a K frame would have the benefit of lighter weight and a lower bore axis.

As far as comfort goes, I don't base what I carry on comfort, I base it on "what is the biggest most powerful thing that I can conceal". I advise others to do the same. The weapons you have with you at the time are what you will be forced to fight with. If one chooses not to follow my advice, that's fine. It's a personal decision.

Good luck deciding.

 

[AZ Desertrat]

I have no problem with using a .38 for daily carry, and have for quite awhile. .357 is awesome and well proven....but the .38 Special is 100 years old and has a proven track record when placement is accomplished.
Ask the many cops who carried a 4-inch Smith for many years.

 

[jhvaughan2]

The only place 38 special isn't deadly is on the internet.

+1
.38 Special was "stopping" people for decades before everyone was told it was not good enough to do that.
.357 came along and allowed LEO's greater ability to shoot through car doors.

That is not likely to be your SD situation.

 

[whw]

I'm going on memory, and that is a risky thing to do for a man of my age-- but here it goes.

Several years ago I watched a police cruiser video of a South Carolina Highway Patrolman in a gunfight with a drug runner. The bad guy survived a total of 6 hits from the officer's .357 revolver. He returned fire from his pocket .22 (or .25) handgun. The round entered the inner aspect of the officer's arm, about midway along the bicep. The bullet struck the bone and traveled into the chest cavity, severing his aorta. I could hear the officer dying as he called dispatch for help. He was dead before backup arrived.

There are several lessons to be learned from this horrid event. One is that the bullet must destroy, or disrupt something that the body considers vital to its existence. Eliminating blood flow to the brain, or destroying the central nervous system seem to be the most effective way to stop an individual.

If you have a round that will penetrate deeply enough to reach something vital, then accuracy is the most significant variable that should be of concern to you.

Good Luck,
whw

 

[arizonaguide]

I carry a .38sp S&W442 jframe with 158gr Lead SWC HollowPoints.
It carries VERY comfortably in Arizona clothes (shorts/casual shirt).
I LOVE the little Jframe for ease of carry and reliability.

That being said, I'd like to upgrade to a 640 Jframe in .357, but then I'd probably end up carrying the same .38 158gr LSWCHP's in it anyway.

 

[arizonaguide]

There are some schools of thought that feel a Heavy/Slow bullet is more effective than a Lighter/Faster bullet...having something to do with effective transfer of momentum. The 45acp falls into this category.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

357 or 38?

I have an issue with muzzle blast inside a home. I used to have 357 revolvers around the place here and one day realized it was not a good idea. The muzzle blast fired inside a building could damage your hearing. Because this, I went back to my 45 pistols and a lone 38 revolver inside the bedroom. I don't believe my wife can handle a pistol so I left the revolver there for her benefit.
Shot placement is king, and besides, I never seen anybody not fearful of a little 38. The cops been taking out bad guys for decades with the special.
All of a sudden a special is inadequate? Hardly.

 

[tpd223]

whw references the Trooper Coates shooting, where the trooper hit the bad guy 5 out of 6 rounds with 125gr .357mag ammo from a 4" duty revolver, but was still killed by this bad guy since he was able to return fire.

Momentum means nothing in pistol bullets, neither does kinetic energy, various power factors, etc. Only hitting the bad guy in a vital structure means anything in real life.

Kieth is someone I talk to on occasion, and we have had long conversations on this and other subjects, and Evan Marshall is a friend of mine as well. Both will tell you that the "one shot stop" is not a tactical philosophy, it's merely one unit of measurement, Evan will advise that one should "shoot to slide lock" when defending yourself (assuming the bad guy is still up and dangerous).

In my personal experience, I know of dramatic one shot stops with the 125gr .357mag Remington load we used to carry back in the wheelgun days, but I also know of failures to stop with the same load, and have been party to an incident where a .45 through a bad guy's chest dead center resulted in a total failure to stop for several minutes.

If I had to choose between the 64 or 65 I'd get the 65 for the greater availability of ammo due to being able to use both .38 and .357 ammo.

At my job the 124gr +P 9mm has been working rather well on bad guys for a long time, so I quit worrying about internet and older rumors to the contrary.
The mid-range loads such as the 135gr Gold Dot or Remington Golden Saber are still hotter than a +P .38, but noticeably more controllable than full house loads, and ballistically very similar to our 9mm +P duty ammo with a proven track record, those would be my first choice for defensive ammo in a 3" .357 revolver.
Past that the 158gr +P LSWCHP, the 135gr Gold Dot, or the Cor BOn DPX are excellent defensive .38 loads.

Frankly, for defensive use you are better armed with your .45, but I carried a K frame wheelgun for duty and defensive use for years so I can't say it's a bad choice.

 

[brucev]

Dear On The Fence,

I understand you are undecided about continuing to carry your 457 due to weight, possibly bulk and less than 100% function. You are inclined to go "simple" w/ a revolver. You would jump on a 696. You are considering a 64 or 65.

Your big issue is one shot stopping power for a solid center of mass hit. You ask is there a significant difference in stopping power... will the .38 do just fine?

JMHO, but buy 65. It will do fine w/ .38 JHP. With the .357 Mag. it will most assuredly be a handful, but it that floats your boat, get a paddle and get going. But personally I would lean to simply buying the 64 or 65 based on which one gave the best value in terms of price and condition. Whichever revolver you buy, get to the range and practice with it until you are able to get good solid hits center of mass at a distance of 3-7 yds. This may not satisfy internet scenarios predicated upon engaging multiple waves of gangs attacking in 30 sec. intervals. If you commonly are at risk for such encounters, your going to need a lot more than any pistol can offer. But for any sort of real world encounter, a 64/65 stuffed with .38 Special +P 125 gr. JHP will be extremely effective. Sincerely. brucev.

BTW...are both the Model 64 and 65 +P guns?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

 

[roundgunner]

'It comes in at the top of most studies.'


Gentlemen, I respectfully take exception with these statements. The referenced article paraphrases Mas Ayoob's work, at best. Mr. Ayoob is careful to caveat the .357s prowess with the fact that it has been used in a statistically overwelming number of shootings and therefore garners the top spot principally by virtue of that fact. His stated preference is for the .45 ACP, also a proven manstopper (just not as widely utilized). Don't get me wrong, the .357 is certainly effective and proven to be so, but the .44 Magnum is not 'second place' to it in killing power (though it's rarely used in cop & robber shootings where most of the data comes from). You must keep in mind that cops carried and used .357s from the late 30s through the early 80s - it became as ubiquitous as the .40 is today.

For the OP, I would recommend you consider an alloy or polymer framed .45 ACP (a sig or smith, if you like DA autos; maybe a Kahr?). If the simplicity of a revolver is really the issue, look into Model 625s, 325s, or 22s in .45. If you have already made up your mind, get the Model 65. It can shoot both and .38 Spl has come a long way (still not a .45 ACP or .44 Spl). If a 696 is really what you want, don't wait to stumble onto one - go find one (Auction Arms.com or Gunbroker.com, etc.). signsrup is correct about the weight - if the 457 is too heavy, the Model 65 will probably be also. Consider the 396 NG - a lighter 5-shot .44 Special. You might be able to find a deal on a used one on Gunbroker (or here). On a budget? look at the Charter Arms Bulldog. JMHO

I have to agree, I fall on the side of larger bullets. People talk about 38/357 expanding, if they expand, and I think modern, high performance bullets will expand most of the time, they expand to the size that 44 / 45 bullets start out at. If the 44 / 45 expand….well.

I also think that low pressure 44SPL / 45acp rounds are much easier for follow up shots. I too try to practice double taps. If one is good two is better.

 

[borntoraisehogs]

Some good advice here . Get the gun you like to shoot and carry , invest in some great gunleather .
We all remember the first rule of gun fighting
1. Have a gun
Some forget the second rule .
2. You must have fancy grips . Okay , not really a rule , but sound fashion advice .

 

[Dot_mdb]

357 or 38?

I have an issue with muzzle blast inside a home. I used to have 357 revolvers around the place here and one day realized it was not a good idea. The muzzle blast fired inside a building could damage your hearing. Because this, I went back to my 45 pistols and a lone 38 revolver inside the bedroom. I don't believe my wife can handle a pistol so I left the revolver there for her benefit.
Shot placement is king, and besides, I never seen anybody not fearful of a little 38. The cops been taking out bad guys for decades with the special.
All of a sudden a special is inadequate? Hardly.

+1 Inside the house it is .38 or 45acp for me.

Bill

 

[arizonaguide]

Momentum means nothing in pistol bullets, neither does kinetic energy, various power factors, etc. Only hitting the bad guy in a vital structure means anything in real life.

There are many folks who would disagree with the statement that Energy and Momentum mean nothing.
Sure, shot placement is NUMBER ONE, but why ignore the PHYSICS of the situation?

Sure, compared to a .50cal Barrett, ALL PISTOLS rank about the same, so why not just carry a .25auto if Momentum and Energy mean nothing in pistol bullets?

My feelings are that I want AS MUCH cross sectional area (caliber) and mass (bullet weight) as I can get, and still have a gun that I WILL carry (so that it's actually ON HAND when needed).
Sure, I want a MINIMUM volocity of around 800fps+, but There's a reason I carry 158gr's in my .38 instead of 125gr's.

I would rather hit them with a SLOWER moving freight train, than a FASTER moving ice pick, for (what will ALWAYS be debated as) one shot "stopping power".
Momentum (and frontal area) DOES mean something...it DOES have differing effects on how much DAMAGE is actually DONE to that "vital structure".
That's why they designed EXPANDING bullets to begin with. Larger FRONTAL AREA = more "vital area" damage/shock.

Why not stack as many variables in your favor as possible...and still have a gun that's light enough that you WILL carry. (.50 Barrett's a little BIG for CCW, but you get the idea, and the same variables still apply). It's just a matter of degree. But, since we'll argue about the difference between 125 grains and 135 grains...why not just stack ALL the variables you can in your favor.

 

[Cruiser RN]

My instructor was a die hard revolver guy who said you should buy a 357 magnum this way you have the option of standard 38,38+P,or 357 Magnum.That being said you should get the 357.Reading about the evolution of 38 special ammo from marginal stopping power with thru and thru wounds with standard 158 grain lead round nosed to the hollow points with rapid expansion and a larger wound tract with modern +P carry loads.The disadvantage of 357 loads were muzzle flash,recoil,and more time taking follow up shots if needed.I think you would be fine using Speer 135 grain Gold Dot ammo.......Mike

 

[Buffalohunter60]

I have no experience shooting humans....but have a had a lot of experience shooting pigs and cattle with hand guns. Shot placment is key...a .22 will kill a large pig with one well placed shot....miss the spot and the pig will act as if nothing happened.
A friend who had no experience shooting animals decided to shoot and butcher his cow. He choose a .25 auto...he placed the muzzel between the eyes (should have been in the middle of the forehead to do the job) at the shot, the cow became very much alive and not in a good mood. My friend grabbed the cow by the horns with one arm and was shooting the cow in the head as they went around and around the door yard...his wife was screeming and the adrenulin was flowing. I ran for the house and retrived my .357 that I was used to shooting and could hit well with it. The cow had drug my friend into the barn and he was holding on for dear life. I told him to let go and get back...which he did. One shot from the .357 between the horn and the eye and that cow dropped like a rock and never moved. The .357 never failed me once ...but shot placement was the key. The .25 auto just did not have the penetration power on the cows skull. I have shot a pig that was popping its teeth at me and would not give me a premium shot, it was going to charge and its snout was up....so I put a bullet right down the snout and followed it up with another through the brain. The pig went down with the round in the snout but was not dead...second round finished it. For me, its about shot placement and having enough penetration to hit the vitals....brain or spine and they are done right now....heart or lungs and you may still have some fight left in them even though they are dying...they can still hurt you. I expect humans will react the same way when hit with a round. Spine or brain and its instant stop....heart or lungs...and it will kill them but it may or may not be instant. just my .02

 

[Tunachaser]

 

[bmcgilvray]

I like the idea of the .357 Magnum and have long felt that a 4-inch or 6-inch .357 Magnum would be the very best all-around handgun.

Strangely though, even thought various .357 Magnums are kept around here, I make scarce use of the cartridge. It's the .38 Special that gets the call when personal defense is needed. Some Remington +P 158 grain lead SWC ammunition or the equivalent handload and I'm happy.

 

[auburn2]

There is no doubt that a .357 magnum JHP will perform as well or better than any .38 and as well or better than almost any other handgun round given the same shot placement.

That said a .357 will also be harder to conceal and harder to shoot than a comparable .38 and shot placement is more important than caliber. That is the reason I keep a 6" 357 under the bed but carry a 2 inch .38.

A few other random comments:
1. For a .357 you want 125g JHPs, for a .38 most experts say to use 158gr LSWCHP +P, preferably with swaged lead bullets vice cast. The .38 need a softer compund to expand well due t its lower velocity. If you hand load take a look at power pistol, that powder can give you low-end .357 velocities at 38+p pressure with a 158gr lead bullet.

2. Personally I think 3" is long for a carry gun ... some people carry full size 1911s or beretta 92s but I would go for a 2 inch revolver every time.

3. A.357 handgun will have a longer cylinder and overall length than a .38 with the same frame and barrell length. Therefore if you aren't going to carry with .357 rounds go with the .38 over the .357.