.38 vs .357- Law Enforcement Edition

[JayFramer]

We all know the days of the .38 special and .357 magnum service revolver are long over. But when revolvers were carried by cops, they mostly were either of these two calibers. Some of the top loads were classics like the 158 grain LSWCHP in .38 special +P (the FBI load) and the 125 grain SJHP in .357 magnum.

This is asking about the use in full-size service revolvers with a 4-6" barrel, NOT snub nosed guns.

For the purposes of Law Enforcement use, highway patrol, street cops, etc. which do you think was the best cartridge for the boys in blue? I'd love to hear from those who used to carry revolvers on duty as well.

Thanks all!

 

[grcoffman104]

My agency and the local big agency swore by Silver tips until 9s then Black Tallon after an abortive stint with subsonic 9mm.

 

[BUFF]

I carried a .357 revolver for my first 10 years as a deputy sheriff. Deputies would pick between .38 or .357. Problem was, we qualified with .38 wadcutters and maybe 5% could qualify with Magnums if they had to. Towards the end of our revolver era, we had a qualification where the armorer had us shoot what we carried. It was either hilarious or horrifying. The worst were plainclothes folks who carried 2-1/2 inch Model 19s or 66s or Colt Pythons. Many had never fired .357 Magnum ammo double action, especially 50 rounds at a time.The overall scores were so bad the sheriff changed it from a 'qualification' to a 'familiarization.'

The proper .357 was obviously a superior stopper IF YOU HIT WHAT YOU SHOT AT. Most departments didn't have the budget to train their officers to a high enough standard with Magnums, especially if they only shot once or twice a year. For those, the less kicking .38 was the better choice.

For a department that had adequate budget and issued and trained with Magnums, I believe it was clearly the better choice.

 

[MacGuffin]

When I began my career, I carried a M66-4 2.5", that I bought with my very first LE discount. I still enjoy that gun! We qualified with, and carried, issued Remington 110 gr. 357 magnum. I always felt comfortably armed with that set-up. We were also issued Remington 38 wadcutters with which to practice. Very smokey ammo! I miss those days. Everything was quite a bit simpler.

 

[rwsmith]

For most of that time period...

The .38 special was MUCH more widely used than the .357 in most municipalities but the .357 gained ground in the last 10 years or so of their useful life, earlier in areas like Highway Patrols, etc. The FBI adopted .38 special +P as their standard load in 1972.

Seeing how the .38 (earlier the .38 S&W) was widely used for 50-60 years before that it is no contest as to what was the most common revolver caliber in the world for a really long time. Not saying it was best, the .357 was a better fight-ender, but worldwide the .38 special was absolute king.

 

[vipermd]

I have seen the results of hits in various places of the body, with both 357/125, and 38/158. The 357 did significantly more damage then the 38, when the "suspect" was hit in the same area/spot. I saw predominantly more 357 wounds than 38. From reports ( unconfirmed ) the suspects seemed to be out of the fight quicker, even with peripheral hits ( hand, arm, leg ). This is ONLY my experience, not an NIJ study, no controls. I would not prefer any 357/38, but if if came down to being shot in the right upper chest, I would believe the 38 would have a higher survival rate, based on what I saw. I do not know if any one has compiled a comparison of shootings, where "all" the variables where the same, ie. distance, BBl length, time of year, clothing, ETOH/ Pharmacology on board. Any studies data would be interesting. Be Safe,

 

[hoc9sw]

My carry firearms were a Ruger Security Six 357 6" or my service issue 1911, as I saw fit. We had to provide our own firearm, so I started with my .45. Bought the Ruger later.

We had no supply for ammo, you were on your own. I bought what the stores had, and honestly don't recall what the .357 rounds were, past FMJ. The 1911 was 230g FMJ, as that was what I could buy as surplus.

 

[jimmyj]

My carry firearms were a Ruger Security Six 357 6" or my service issue 1911, as I saw fit. We had to provide our own firearm, so I started with my .45. Bought the Ruger later.

We had no supply for ammo, you were on your own. I bought what the stores had, and honestly don't recall what the .357 rounds were, past FMJ. The 1911 was 230g FMJ, as that was what I could buy as surplus.

In my beginning era ammo choices in my area:
.38 spl:
148 gr wad cutter
158 gr LRN
200 gr super police

.357:
158gr LSWC
158 gr JSP

 

[bigsteve113]

When I began my law enforcement career in 1983 my first duty weapon was a 66-4 4". Carried it for years with magnum ammo. 159gr HP's for the first couple years, then 125's afterwards. I still carry that same 66 in the outdoors while hunting/woods bumming. Still love that old 66 !!!!

 

[Seven High]

Most of the cops that I qualified with were not into guns. They did not practice at all. They were intimidated by the flash and blast of 357 rounds. They did noticeably better with 38 spl ammo for qualification and street duty.

 

[rwsmith]

It's kind off moot now but.....

Just because you have a .357 you shouldn't be obligated to use the full power. Even more so if you use a K frame. A .357 cartridge with a duty round better than .38 +P like maybe around midrange for a .358 magnum.

 

[lrrifleman]

I was never a LEO, but I was a friend of a few. When I was growing up, my hometown police department was the subject of a Philadelphia Inquirer story entitled "The Cops That Couldn't Shoot Straight". After that article came out, my hometown police traded in their Model 10s and adopted the Model 58 with the 210gr lead police load.

 

[Old cop]

I can only speak from personal on-the-street experience. I had to use my .38 more than once in my 30 year career and it was loaded with the FBI +P load. Sometimes the bad guy died and sometimes he didn't, but he did stop and that was the objective. I worked in a medium sized but very densely populated city so .357 was looked at as too much gun for what we were dealing with.

 

[Old Corp]

My agency's first two revolvers during my career were the Colt Trooper MKIII and then the S&W M66 4".
Authorized ammo made the progression from the .38 Spl. 158 gr. RNL to, in the mid 70's a .38 Spl. 110 gr. +P JHP and then the .38 125 gr. +P JHP.

Magnums were never authorized. Bureaucratic reasoning entered in I'm sure, for public perception, and the most absurd reason I heard was that some of our firearms training staff 'tested' the duty ammo and made their choice on what would do the least damage if the officer had his weapon taken in an altercation and it was used against him.
Using that logic, sign me up for a Crossman lookalike Co2 revolver.

 

[rwsmith]

Even moreso.....

My agency's first two revolvers during my career were the Colt Trooper MKIII and then the S&W M66 4".
Authorized ammo made the progression from the .38 Spl. 158 gr. RNL to, in the mid 70's a .38 Spl. 110 gr. +P JHP and then the .38 125 gr. +P JHP.

Magnums were never authorized. Bureaucratic reasoning entered in I'm sure, for public perception, and the most absurd reason I heard was that some of our firearms training staff 'tested' the duty ammo and made their choice on what would do the least damage if the officer had his weapon taken in an altercation and it was used against him.
Using that logic, sign me up for a Crossman lookalike Co2 revolver.

That is nuts. My old 'Man from U.N.C.L.E' gun would be even better. Shot caps. Looked cool, though.

 

[Jbearwebb]

In the early '80s all officers in my area were required to carry a sidearm capable of firing .38 special ammo. Each individual purchased their weapon and ammo. In my academy class there were 70 officers and only one officer carried a Colt, and EVERYONE else had S&W. The majority of those were model 66 4".

Most of us liked the Winchester silver tip 357 magnum ammo, can't remember for certain but I think it was 148 grain. We qualified annual with the 38 wad cutters...collected brass...a couple of guys reloaded and we qualified with it again. Big difference in recoil and muzzle flash.

I have personally witnessed what those silver tips can do...compared to the 9mm today... I will just say I miss the good ole days [emoji61][emoji600]

 

[66 shooter]

Qualified with and carried .38 spl. hollowpoints......but all of us carried speed loaders loaded with .357 mags., (after roll call of course) yea, .357 SuperVel.

 

[vipermd]

Public Perception--Has always left me wondering what it meant? Using a "deadly" weapon implies that fatal results could occur. I Often wondered why "bureaucrats" with limited firearms/ballistic knowledge would make decisions for what a LEO carried. Black Talon and later Ranger was/is an excellent bullet, that did what it was supposed to do, yet some in the media, proclaimed it too "dangerous". When a less lethal option came aboard such as a Taser, the media has once again complained that it was used too often, not enough, or incorrectly, even though they lack the knowledge of human physiology, specifically how a different muscle types work. It seems though we have reached a level where the LEO can "not" do anything without being castigated by some group of the public. Be Safe,

 

[jupiter1]

When I came on the Job, the 158gr RNL was the issue load. I didn't hear much complaint in the ranks about it other than the occasional comment about the bullet not making it through a car door in a few incidents. One of the last incidents I remember involved a holdup man walking out of a gas station and a Patrolman who who planted a RNL in his chest. The guy stopped right there. At first, no one at the scene could find a bullet wound. Did he collapse from fright? Turns out that the guy was hit square in the nipple and the wound was hard to see.

I became interested in the the handgun effectiveness subject and read the gun literature at the time. Drug use was in full force and there were accounts of drug crazed individuals taking a lot of 158 gr RNL before going down. Whenever the gun writers spoke about the .38, they tacked on words like feeble, weak kneed, impotent, ineffective etc. This influenced me and I figured maybe more power was needed. I picked up some pre +P Remington 158 RNL High Velocity rounds and carried those for a short time. Except for the head stamp, they looked just like our duty load.

One day I discovered a new Winchester load, a 158 gr SWC lead hollow point high velocity round. I bought some and carried them. My job emphasized that they didn't want to see us carrying any jacketed rounds like the new Super Vels. So I thought, what the heck, no jackets on these LHPs.

I carried those a very short time. Our department announced that we were getting a new round to replace the standard velocity RNLs. That round was the Winchester semi wadcutter high velocity (pre +P days). It did better on auto sheet metal. Everyone I worked with seemed satisfied with this round. Perps shot with it went down. I remember one incident when a knife wielding subject, who refused to stop advancing on an officer, took one round dead center and went right down. Months later, and minus a few feet of intestines, the subject actually thanked the officer for making him see the error of his ways. Quite a contrast from what is going on today.

We carried those 158 gr Semi wadcutters for quite a while. However, our department discovered the W-W 158 gr SWC lead hollow points that other departments were adopting and switched us over to that round. I was a little sad to see the solid semi wadcutter retired. We used the LHP up until the adoption of 9mm semi autos.

 

[badge]

My first agency authorized Magnum rounds and I carried them. I could also shoot them. Not everyone can or can well. Training is a large part of shooting and in the good ole' day's, recruits were BOOTED out of academy's because they could not shoot, run, pass tests,. etc. Is that fair? Who cares,......? You either measure up as I was told or your out. Once again, training is key and I'm of the opinion that if someone cannot shoot a magnum well and there is a decent .38Plus P alternative that they can shoot well, allow it. I'm an old guy though and really do not know all that much but I think that's FAIR.