.38 vs .357- Law Enforcement Edition

[Groo01]

Groo here
When I started at the SO we provided our own guns.
We had 38s 357s a 41mag and 2 44mags.
The word was if you can qualify, you can carry.
The vast number were 357mags.
Autos were not good with HP's of the time and looked on
as a passing fad. {EXCEPT the 1911 45acp]

 

[Horseless Trooper]

Good old days

When I started in 83 we were issued the S&W 681 with 158gr. JSP ammo. I used it to put down lots of injured deer and it seemed to anchor them much better than the 147gr. 9mm when we transitioned. The only person I personally who used the load on a bad guy was one of our investigators who shot a cop-killer 3 times with his issue 3in. M65. The guy didn't go down so he ran over him with his K-car. Still didn't kill him but definitely stopped the gunfight. A heavier load such as a Crown Vic or Gran Fury might have been more lethal but not more effective but then again the K-car failed to expand. Perhaps a car with newer technology would have expanded but the perp was only wearing one layer of denim.

 

[Ranger514]

When I started out in LE, the four-inch barrel .38 Special Model 10 was issued to the new hires, simply because that's what the agency had on hand. While the .357 had been approved and was considered the better man stopper, budget restraints prevented a complete turnover. I had my own 686 for duty carry, and we shot 125 grain JHP for practice and qualifications. Most LEOs in my agency didn't have problems with full .357 magnum loads. Those that did stuck with the old issued .38 Spl. handguns and shot heavier JHP. At the time, I remember everyone considered the .357 better for penetrating heavier clothed BGs, and better for having more power out a further ranges.

 

[StakeOut]

I carried a heavy barrel Model 10 issued in early 1966 for nearly 20 years along with a 5 shot Chief and a 6 shot Colt Detective Special;these all being .38spl.
On stakeouts I had my Model 10 on my right hip,The Colt in an ankle holster and a Colt 60/70 series government model in a Seventrees shoulder holster..An Ithica Model 37 was always close by.
Each and every time I needed to put an armed robber in a non retaliatory position I chose my Model 10 first.I guess I had what has been termed FBI load in the model 10 most of the time that I hand loaded for to my own specs.Nothing was over what might be now termed +P.
I loaded to my ability of getting the max number of shots on target in the least amount of time so no mags or hot loads for me.
I attended several medical examiner autopsies for grand jury appearances and to view the damage caused.The 158gr LSWCHP loads did the intended job.

There's no bullet or gun made that takes the place of marksmanship.

 

[Texas Star]

I carried both .38 HP ammo and .357 loads. Depended on the assignment and locale. Don't want to fire .357 ammo indoors. That matters in store and court security, etc.

I think .357 loads should be limited to those who can qualify with them. But they do work better, if they connect well.

 

[snowman.45]

I started in a small town in the San Joaquin Valley in California in 1977. We were a rural area, so we carried .357 mag in a S&W, Colt or Ruger. I carried a Model 28, so .357 was not too punishing. I used .38 in the Model 60 I carried off- duty most of the time. It was loaded with 158 gr. .38+p. Both were known to be good stoppers.

 

[Kframerbluvr]

Started in 1981 with a M64 heavy barrel 4" .38 loaded with Remington 125 grain JHP rounds. We changed to the 158 grain LHP before going to the G17 with the 147 grain subsonic hollow points.

 

[rwsmith]

For a long time....

Most of the cops that I qualified with were not into guns. They did not practice at all. They were intimidated by the flash and blast of 357 rounds. They did noticeably better with 38 spl ammo for qualification and street duty.

I think hearing protection and glasses was for wimps. I don't know how anybody that went around firing guns had any hearing at all.

 

[rwsmith]

Partially the fault.....

Black Talon and later Ranger was/is an excellent bullet, that did what it was supposed to do, yet some in the media, proclaimed it too "dangerous".

That was partially the fault of Winchester's advertising. Though they didn't come out and say it, it was pictured as something like Marsala's chariot wheels in 'Ben Hur'.

 

[caleb4387]

Just because you have a .357 you shouldn't be obligated to use the full power. Even more so if you use a K frame. A .357 cartridge with a duty round better than .38 +P like maybe around midrange for a .358 magnum.

I love my model 13 but magnums are a bit more than I care for.I keep it loaded with 158 grain 38 lead hollopint s.for 357 I like something mild like Golden sabers but usually keep the 38,s in it because I can shoot them easiest one handed and such

 

[Pigirondan]

In 1975 my goal was to be either a cop or a firefighter. Whoever hired me first was the way I was going to go. I started to take tests and also started to pass a few. One PD test I passed had only one opening at the time and naturally, and rightly, the job went to a Veteran. However, I actually did okay too and the department suggested that I should become a reserve. So I did. Went through the reserve academy and started to do my field training. The department issued the Model 66 and I was equipped with a Model 19. At that time, the officers were required to carry .38 Special 158 grain SWC-HP as their first six and were allowed to carry 125 grain SJHP .357 for their 12 rounds of back-up ammo. (In speed strips!) That went on for 6 months and then I was offered a job as a firefighter in the same city.

Time went on and I still had plenty of friends on the PD and they kept me up to date on what was happening. The big thing was in 1976 they were allowed to ditch the .38 Special ammunition and go to all .357, and use speed loaders too.

I typed all that to say this, when they used the .357 125 grain SJHP to subdue suspects, it was devastating. No ifs ands or buts. One shot stops were common place and more often than not, fatal.

Of course they were no different and as automatics became fashionable the wheel guns went the way of the Dodo. Now they issue the Glock 21 and Glock 22 and allow various other officer purchased platforms with the 1911 being the preferred choice.

And to digress, the times I've seen the .45ACP used, it's every bit as effective in subduing criminals as the .357, YMMV