.380 Not Good Defensive Caliber??

[stantheman86]

.380 is just fine, don't believe the range commandos......

people at my job were talking about the newer Glock 42 and saying they wouldnt "trust" .380 for defense....hogwash, some of the newer loads like Civil Defense have as much energy as .38 Special. I for one don't want a 90 grain .380 caliber piece of metal piercing into my body cavity at 1300 fps.

I honestly don't believe even the most drug addled attacker is going to shrug off a .380 to the frontal lobe or sternum.

There's a line you have to draw, everyone always has an opinion and no caliber is big enough for some people unless you're carrying a S&W .500.....I often carry a Beretta Bobcat .25 which is blasphemy for some people but 10 rounds of hot Fiocchi .25 FMJ is a decent get off me payload.

Sure if you can carry a larger gun, do so. But my LCP is so light it's easy to carry when I can't carry anything else. When I'm in gym shorts and a t-shirt I can't conceal even my S&W 60 or Airweight but I can make my LCP disappear.

I also carry NAA Mini revolvers in .22 Short and LR.

 

[hawkeye17]

carried a Sig .380 when in a suit and a beretta .32 when undercover always felt well armed . Think shot placement.

 

[amd6547]

I didn't need a Beretta 84F 14-shot 380...but when I saw a nice Israeli surplus one for less than $300, I bought it. Figured I would shoot it a few times, the sell or trade it.
Well, I found I really like the 84F. Fits my hand well, good heft and pointability, accurate and reliable. Nice safe design, too.
So, while I have other suitable options like my G26 9mm or my GP100 3", the Beretta is in my belt right now.

 

[ClayCow]

.380 is fine. It's always about shot.placement and always has been. When I did ccw I did Glock 42. I do have a Glock 19 and 32 by my bed though

 

[ATF]

Anyone thinking about buying a .380 I would ask "Why bother?"
Everyone should already have a 9mm and new 9mm mini pistols like the Sig P938 are just so small there is no reason I could think of to add another caliber to your collection. Keep it simple and maintain the power of a 9mm JHP.

 

[stantheman86]

I have wanted a Beretta 84 for a while, but I've also been looking for a CZ-83 .380. I had a CZ82 9x18 I foolishly sold when a small part broke inside of it, 9x18 is a good round and those guns are very reliable. I had a CZ83 .32 but that dissapeared when I split from my wife.....

I had a commercial .380 Baikal Makarov that shot like a dream, very pleasant to shoot and very accurate. I should have kept that one. There's just something cool about medium sized all-steel .380 pistols.

 

[Protected One]

Anyone thinking about buying a .380 I would ask "Why bother?"
Everyone should already have a 9mm and new 9mm mini pistols like the Sig P938 are just so small there is no reason I could think of to add another caliber to your collection. Keep it simple and maintain the power of a 9mm JHP.

Like several others on the forum, you seem to miss the point.
The fact that 9mm pistols are available in sizes similar to that of most 380's is NOT the only determining factor in purchasing. In fact...it may not even be the most important.

The trend of building larger calibers into smaller and smaller platforms is the gun industries response to the rising demand for concealable carry handguns. "Gotta give the people what they want" is their motto. Many people, mostly new to ccw and lacking a solid education on ballistics, believe that having a large caliber (45acp, .40S&W,357mag, 9mm) is a "must", but they still want a small package for carry. They give little or no thought to the fact that the recoil may be unmanageable for them, preventing the ability to accurately put shots (or follow up shots) on target. Some, my wife for example, are keenly aware that they are recoil sensitive and need something they can shoot accurately. For them the .380 (or even a .22magnum) fits the bill.

Ultimately, everyone will make this choice for themselves, as you obviously have. But just as you have reasons for the choice you made, there are valid reasons for other people to make a different choice.

 

[Biggfoot44]

A .380 is better than stern looks and harsh words , and I wouldn't care to be shot with one , etc . A full sized metal frame .380 ( think the Berreta 84 from above) will have minimal recoil, important for people with severe arthritus , carpal tunnel , and other hand disabilities. Modern subcompact .380's are close to the size of many .25acps , and the .380 is a step up. I used to carry a .380 in the 1980's .( Note , I didn't in '90s , '00s , or to date in 'teens )

Blowbacl .380s kick like a mule . In my hands , my subcompact .380 was more punishing than a .44mag ( more to due with hand fit than physics ). For a brief slice of history , that particular .380 was the most-est power in the smaller-est package , and I put up with it for that reason...for a while.

Modern polymer subcompact 9mm's are similar sized to previous .380's . But provide an entirely different level of performance. I moved on to Airweight J frames and subcompact 9 as BUGs , and never looked back.

Ironicaly , I like .32acp . If one places any faith to studies based on real world results ( at least in cals with a large number of dtat points ) , compared bullet type to bullet type ( fmj vs fmj , jhp vs jhp ) , the .32acp was within two percentage points of the .380acp . But with much less recoil , and resultant much better control and practical accuraccy..

 

[Protected One]

Ironicaly , I like .32acp . If one places any faith to studies based on real world results ( at least in cals with a large number of dtat points ) , compared bullet type to bullet type ( fmj vs fmj , jhp vs jhp ) , the .32acp was within two percentage points of the .380acp . But with much less recoil , and resultant much better control and practical accuraccy..

I had a conversation with a local LEO the other day. His department issue is a 357sig, which he hates. This man is a lifelong hunter and firearms aficionado, and he too loves the .32 as a self defense round over .380.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Protect One posted while I was pecking at the mini-keyboard.

The first two thirds of his post make excellent points. When asked , the masses will reply they want : Most smallest , Most lightest , AND most powerful . This not new, it has been going one since the begining of ctg handguns, and and a lot of meaningful progress has been made.But eventually the laws of physics and human ergonomics become a factor.

We have pistols too physically small to be grasped by an adult hand . We have very light very powerful pistols that can not be meaningfuly controled by 98% of users. And there is a point where shrinking a gun further doesn't provide any advantage in meaningful carry.

Sure , I've know people who carried a .22short mini revolver inside a cigarette pack ( empty of cigarettes ). I've know people to carry a Baby Browning buttoned inside a shirt pocket. But when we set our parameters to include being able to draw them quickly in a situation where the organic compost is flying, the exotic deep , deep cover modes won't cut it.

Thru first hand experience I learned that with any BUG carry mode that I could carry a .25acp with rapid access , I could as easily carry an Airweight .38 ( and later poly subcompact 9mm ) , and still be adaquately concealed.

Rather than Most small AND most powerful , what we really need is Plenty small enough , combined with reasonably powerful.

*To me* that means if I want more than a .32 , the next practical jump is subcompact 9mm or small .38 .

 

[ATF]

Like several others on the forum, you seem to miss the point.
The fact that 9mm pistols are available in sizes similar to that of most 380's is NOT the only determining factor in purchasing. In fact...it may not even be the most important.

The trend of building larger calibers into smaller and smaller platforms is the gun industries response to the rising demand for concealable carry handguns. "Gotta give the people what they want" is their motto. Many people, mostly new to ccw and lacking a solid education on ballistics, believe that having a large caliber (45acp, .40S&W,357mag, 9mm) is a "must", but they still want a small package for carry. They give little or no thought to the fact that the recoil may be unmanageable for them, preventing the ability to accurately put shots (or follow up shots) on target. Some, my wife for example, are keenly aware that they are recoil sensitive and need something they can shoot accurately. For them the .380 (or even a .22magnum) fits the bill.

Ultimately, everyone will make this choice for themselves, as you obviously have. But just as you have reasons for the choice you made, there are valid reasons for other people to make a different choice.

Your reasoning is sound but I try to keep it as simple as possible. My wife uses a .38 special which she has absolutely no problem with. She can handle the recoil fine because it's a heavier stainless J Frame DA/SA. I also use this on occasion especially when we are traveling together. It's no use asking her to shoot a 9mm semi-auto because if it jammed she'd be lost. Same scenario with any semi-auto women in general have problems with them, whatever the caliber is.
I was just trying to make the point that keeping your calibers as minimal as possible is one way to go. Others have different opinions of course.
Now I only use 9mm, .38 and 12 ga shotgun shells and life is so much simpler.
I believe Hitler committed suicide with a Walther .32 ACP so they do work I'm not denying that.

 

[CaptRon956]

Well considering that the .380 has been around since 1908 I'd say that if it wasn't a decent round then it wouldn't be around for as long as it has. IMO I think the .380 is a great defensive round.

I'd like to hear more from our LEO's or those who work in the ER any stories you guys can tell us from first hand accounts of any experience dealing with 380's. I think that would give us a realistic idea of the effectivness of this round.

 

[one eye joe]

A GOOD QUALITY .380 SEMI-AUTO (MAYBE A SIG) WITH SOME BUFFALO BORE +P AMMO, SHOULD DO THE TRICK. RE A GOOD QUALITY .380---I PURCHASED A WALTHER PPK, YEARS AGO. IT WAS NOT CHEAP. IT CAME NICELY PACKAGED WITH A TEST TARGET. THE TEST TARGET SHOWED A TIGHT 3 SHOT GROUP, A BIT LOW AND TO THE RIGHT. I TOOK IT TO THE RANGE, AND WAS ALL OVER AND OFF THE TARGET @ 50 FEET. I MAINTAINED A SMALLBORE AVERAGE IN THE 290s FOR MANY YEARS, AND AT THE TIME, AND PROBABLY BEEN SHOOTING FOR OVER 40 YEARS. NONE OF MY FRIENDS COULD SHOOT IT WORTH A HOOT EITHER. WHAT IT DID DO WAS CUT TWO LINES IN THE WEB OF MY HAND FROM THE SHARP EDGED BACK STRAP. I SOLD IT, AFTER FOOLING WITH IT THROUGH ABOUT 2 BOXES OF FMJ AMMO. I NOTICED A POSTER ABOVE WAS VERY HAPPY WITH HIS, BUT THAT WAS NOT ME EXPERIENCE. IN ANY EVENT, I WOULD STAY AWAY FROM THE CHEAP .380s OR CHEAP SEMI-AUTOS IN GENERAL. THEY TEND TO TURN OUT TO BE JAM-O-MATICS……..

 

[hatchdog]

Don't be too quick to discount the .380. With the correct ammo it can be a very effective self defense round. The best carry ammo is Buffalo Bore 100 grain hardcast lead. This bullet will penetrate through heavy layers of clothing and through rib bones to reach the vitals. 380 hollow points could possibly fill up with clothing material causing them to loose penetration ability. Another consideration is how well you can access and shoot your 380. I recently had the opportunity to take a small pistol/pocket pistol class at a local range. We engaged targets from long distance (maybe 50') to as close as 9'. I was very disappointed with my ability to draw and fire my pocket 380 at nine feet. (turning targets with a two second presentation as I recall) I will still carry my 380 but I plan on carrying my Shield more than I used to.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=127

"This 380 Auto+P ammo will better all American made 380 Auto ammo by 150 fps to 200 fps in all bullet weights we make. This is a serious improvement in this typically anemic cartridge. This 380 auto+P ammo is more powerful than the typical 38SPL ammo made by most American ammo makers and you'll get 7 shots of it in a small/flat/light weight 380 versus 5 shots out of a bulkier 38 SPL J frame revolver. Additionally, with the 380 you'll get much faster reloads and the little magazines are flatter than a speed-loader used for a J frame."

The course I took

Center Target Sports - Defense with Pocket/Compact guns CTS-240

My Kahr P380 with the Buffalo Bore hardcast defensive ammo

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Anyone thinking about buying a .380 I would ask "Why bother?"
Everyone should already have a 9mm and new 9mm mini pistols like the Sig P938 are just so small there is no reason I could think of to add another caliber to your collection. Keep it simple and maintain the power of a 9mm JHP.

Since you asked....

The Sig is a nice gun, and I really wanted to find a reason to buy one. Unfortunately, I found the Sig to be an oversized boat anchor for pocket carry compared to my Ruger LCP. I tried to justify pocket carrying the Sig at a pound empty and over an inch wide, but I've already got the best pocket gun at a pound and over an inch wide, S&W 642. I just couldn't find a niche for the Sig that other guns don't serve my needs better, particularly absent small safety controls to fumble with.

Back to calibers.... Adding calibers to my collection? Of course. Different calibers accommodate my different needs. I'm not interested in trying to accommodate a caliber. Only have one .380, that's all I need. Greg Ellifritz study, An Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power, helped confirm what I already believed.

 

[ATF]

Since you asked....

The Sig is a nice gun, and I really wanted to find a reason to buy one. Unfortunately, I found the Sig to be an oversized boat anchor for pocket carry compared to my Ruger LCP. I tried to justify pocket carrying the Sig at a pound empty and over an inch wide, but I've already got the best pocket gun at a pound and over an inch wide, S&W 642. I just couldn't find a niche for the Sig that other guns don't serve my needs better, particularly absent small safety controls to fumble with.

Back to calibers.... Adding calibers to my collection? Of course. Different calibers accommodate my different needs. I'm not interested in trying to accommodate a caliber. Only have one .380, that's all I need. Greg Ellifritz study, An Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power, helped confirm what I already believed.

Phil I'm 100% behind you on the Smith but I prefer the 60 with a hammer.
The real question is why didn't you for the LC9 the size difference is marginal and I agree with you about the Sig P938 too many safeties but I can live with it because it's such a great shooter.

 

[Voyager28]

Buffalo Bore 95 gr. hollow points are what my wife carries in her Sig P238

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVCsosglj8E

I load my PPK with a BB 95 Gr JHP in the pipe and 1 more as the first round in the mag. The rest of the mag is loaded with BB +P, 100 gr. Hard cast FN.

That gives me 2 very good hole makers and 5 penetrators should the first 2 not get the job done. Ballistics gel tests of these rounds are very impressive.

Bob

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Phil I'm 100% behind you on the Smith but I prefer the 60 with a hammer.
The real question is why didn't you for the LC9 the size difference is marginal and I agree with you about the Sig P938 too many safeties but I can live with it because it's such a great shooter.

The LC9 is another great gun. But like the Sig, it's just more gun than I want for pocket carry. An inch longer and taller, and about twice the weight of my LCP. In a DeSantis Nemesis, the LCP stays in the pocket from the time I get dressed till bedtime. I'm just not willing to trade ease of all-day pocket carry with the LCP for a different caliber other than my 642 which I carry maybe 10% of the time now. My safe is full of larger guns from 9mm to 45ACP that I don't/won't carry.

If there comes a time when my hands are not strong enough to 100% reliably shoot the small LCP then I'll never carry it again. Until then, I believe the .380 is adequate for self defense and I shoot it to my satisfaction.

7yds.

[/URL]

 

[stantheman86]

There once was a time when police carried .32 Long and .38 S&W revolvers and they were considered good enough......now 9mm is the "new .380" and .40 is the new 9mm etc. etc.

I believe it's more marketing and machismo than anything else, .38 Special was plenty good enough for 50+ years but now it's seen as inadequate.....someone explain to me why that is.....

 

[ou1954]

Well I carry an NAA in .22 short. I don't feel undergunned at at all. I feel like I can make sufficient noise and I won't pause to wonder whether my assailant is rolling around laughing or has actually been injured by a bullet.

I used to have some .22 LR that had small shot in a plastic "bullet". Never fired them and they are long lost during a move. I had rifles then and though the shot shells would pretty much discourage someone. I sold the rifles after moving here and have settled on an SD9VE but often wonder whether those shot-filled .22's would actuate a pistol or whether they would deter someone.

Anyone have a thought or experience with the .22 shot shells?