i was talking to a fellow who told me that the 380 was a worthless choice for a defensive round. I think that a larger caliber would probably be better, but a 380 with well placed hits would be a good caliber to conceal carry. What do you think?
.380 Not Good Defensive Caliber??
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.380 Poor Defensive Caliber??
i was talking to a fellow who told me that the 380 was a worthless choice for a defensive round. I think that a larger caliber would probably be better, but a 380 with well placed hits would be a good caliber to conceal carry. What do you think?
i was talking to a fellow who told me that the 380 was a worthless choice for a defensive round. I think that a larger caliber would probably be better, but a 380 with well placed hits would be a good caliber to conceal carry. What do you think?
Here we go again....
Ask him if he would like to be shot with one at close range....
My wife's CC is a Kal-Tec .380, 8 rounds will be more then enough I think.
Ask him if he would like to be shot with one at close range....
My wife's CC is a Kal-Tec .380, 8 rounds will be more then enough I think.
shouldazagged
Absent Comrade
Welcome to the forum, from Louisville.
There are many threads on this subject. If you use the search function you'll find lots of them.
You'll also find that the opinions fall into very predictable categories, especially the "shot placement is everything" contingent. There will be people denouncing the .380 as a ridiculous mouse gun that will get you killed, and those who carry guns in .380 daily and feel quite comfortable.
What you won't find is consensus.
Good luck.
There are many threads on this subject. If you use the search function you'll find lots of them.
You'll also find that the opinions fall into very predictable categories, especially the "shot placement is everything" contingent. There will be people denouncing the .380 as a ridiculous mouse gun that will get you killed, and those who carry guns in .380 daily and feel quite comfortable.
What you won't find is consensus.
Good luck.
Ed Fowler
Member
The Sept/Oct 1913 "American Handgunner" had an excellent article on stopping power. It was very well done. I suggest you read it, consider what style of handgun you want to carry and make your decision. The 32 acp ranked first, 72% one shot stops, closely followed by the 380, 62%, .357 mag. 61% then 22 rimfire 60%. It is an article well worth reading.
Here we go again....
Ask him if he would like to be shot with one at close range....
My wife's CC is a Kal-Tec .380, 8 rounds will be more then enough I think.
You said 'Here we go again", I am fairly new to the S&W Forum, so I get the feeling that this topic has probably been discussed multiple times.
Much as with 9mm, long considered not a real self defense round by some, improvements in technology have made the .380 a viable choice for self defense carry.
I saw a lot of people who were shot in my career. Over 300 or so. No matter what caliber they were shot with, it pretty much stopped them from doing whatever it was they were doing before they got shot.
Only one guy, who was probably stoned, ever told me that it didn't really hurt. Maybe not, but he still was lying on the sidewalk when I got there.
The thing that I think some people don't really consider is that if someone is so recoil shy to a particular caliber or gun, it's less likely that they'll shoot when they need to. If my wife were too shoot someone with 10 rounds from our Walther P22, it would be better than her not shooting someone with our 642.
Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
I saw a lot of people who were shot in my career. Over 300 or so. No matter what caliber they were shot with, it pretty much stopped them from doing whatever it was they were doing before they got shot.
Only one guy, who was probably stoned, ever told me that it didn't really hurt. Maybe not, but he still was lying on the sidewalk when I got there.
The thing that I think some people don't really consider is that if someone is so recoil shy to a particular caliber or gun, it's less likely that they'll shoot when they need to. If my wife were too shoot someone with 10 rounds from our Walther P22, it would be better than her not shooting someone with our 642.
Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
texmex
Member
380 may not be a real powerhouse, but it is definitely not worthless. Nowadays, there are 380s about the same size as the previous generations 25 autos (Ruger LCP = 1908 Colt 25). There are also 9mm the size of the older 380s (Ruger LC9 = Walther PPK). 32ACP was used by European police for years as a duty weapon. 380 shoots a bigger, heavier bullet faster than the 32. You just have to pick a good 380 load that offers decent penetration (FMJ or a premium bullet such as Golddot) and strive for good shot placement. 380 is definitely more effective than a stern verbal warning. It is about the most power you can get that will fit in a shirt pocket or watch pocket. I would sure rather have a small 38 Special or 9mm, but the 380 in your pocket sure beats the 44 Magnum left at home.
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There are choices better than the .380 for stopping power
However the .380 is FAR Superior to carrying nothing
However the .380 is FAR Superior to carrying nothing
lhump1961
US Veteran
"it pretty much stopped them from doing whatever it was they were doing before they got shot."
That right there! Someone starts shooting with a .380 and whatever was going on just got a drastic change.
Seems like a viable option to me.
That right there! Someone starts shooting with a .380 and whatever was going on just got a drastic change.
Seems like a viable option to me.
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The 380 has been a popular choice for use in compact autos since it's
debut in 1908. Many different guns have been chambered for it the
world over, from near junk to very high quality. It seems to be more
popular than ever here in the US with many new autos introduced in
the last several years aimed at the self defense market. If it's
worthless for defense it's taking folks an awful long time to figure it
out.
debut in 1908. Many different guns have been chambered for it the
world over, from near junk to very high quality. It seems to be more
popular than ever here in the US with many new autos introduced in
the last several years aimed at the self defense market. If it's
worthless for defense it's taking folks an awful long time to figure it
out.
alaskavett
US Veteran
Simple and easy reply to your question.....
What would you wish to be shot with? Think of it before you reply... Me, I wish no more holes anywhere...
Do some testing with a .380 before you dismiss it. Take some one gallon milk jugs and fill them half full to about full with water. Place them at the "range" you might feel threatened enough to deploy your last response weapon... Your .380.. You will be surprised what it will do at the range you NEED it. Remember, it is not a long range combat weapon but it is much better then NOTHING. Kyle
What would you wish to be shot with? Think of it before you reply... Me, I wish no more holes anywhere...
Do some testing with a .380 before you dismiss it. Take some one gallon milk jugs and fill them half full to about full with water. Place them at the "range" you might feel threatened enough to deploy your last response weapon... Your .380.. You will be surprised what it will do at the range you NEED it. Remember, it is not a long range combat weapon but it is much better then NOTHING. Kyle
I've looked a few YouTube videos on .380 ballistic tests. The conclusion of a couple of these tests is that it would be far more effective for defense purposes to use a 'ball' round rather than a hollow point, because the 'ball' penetrates twice as far. Would you agree with this?
ChattanoogaPhil
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Google an Alternative Look at Handgun Stopping Power by Greg Ellifritz. His report reveals the same as GaryS' observations. From .380ACP through .45ACP the results are eerily similar.
Big Shrek
Member
My EDC is a CS45, BUG is a .32acp, either way, something is going to stop.
If I empty a mag in someone center mass, and they continue to close,
it'll just be a really interesting day for them...
at that point its totally justified in using nothing but dirty hand techniques.
Eye gouge, throat cartilage break, etc...
Of course, this is why the 3-rd Mozambique Drill is so important...
if the opponent is wearing body armour,
the two to the chest will just tickle...
the third to the head tends to put a stop to things
If I empty a mag in someone center mass, and they continue to close,
it'll just be a really interesting day for them...
at that point its totally justified in using nothing but dirty hand techniques.
Eye gouge, throat cartilage break, etc...
Of course, this is why the 3-rd Mozambique Drill is so important...
if the opponent is wearing body armour,
the two to the chest will just tickle...
the third to the head tends to put a stop to things
Milpolice
US Veteran
I carry a BG380 daily, in a pocket holster and take it everywhere. As someone once said "the best defensive gun you can get is the one you got with you when you need it"
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Yes, this topic may have come up before...enjoy all 2,229 posts (not counting yours) :
http://smith-wessonforum.com/search...:siodb9lchnk&cof=FORID:9&q=.380+defense&sa=Go
If you have a .380 you needn't feel undergunned. If you are looking for a carry gun, there are more powerful alternatives at or near the same size (9 mm and .40 S & W). If this is a hypothetical discussion the threads above will cover just about everything.
:http://smith-wessonforum.com/search...:siodb9lchnk&cof=FORID:9&q=.380+defense&sa=Go
If you have a .380 you needn't feel undergunned. If you are looking for a carry gun, there are more powerful alternatives at or near the same size (9 mm and .40 S & W). If this is a hypothetical discussion the threads above will cover just about everything.
Another angle to look at is...... .380s tend to be "mostly" blow-back operated vs. lock breach.........
Some find the recoil of a .380 blow-back much "harder" than a 9mm.
Modern ammo .380 is OK for self-defense ...... but remember no handgun caliber equals a rifle in stopping power.
Some find the recoil of a .380 blow-back much "harder" than a 9mm.
Modern ammo .380 is OK for self-defense ...... but remember no handgun caliber equals a rifle in stopping power.
Ivan the Butcher
Member
380 was enough gun to kill Arch Duke Ferdinand, and thus begin WWW I. How much more could you ask of any handgun? Ivan
380 is considered the minimum by most. As you read, one forum member carries a 32 and doesn't feel under armed. The confidence in your gun is important. Getting your hits with a 32 or 380 is more important than misses with a 45 or 357.
That being said, my wife's Sig 232 in 380, to me, recoils more than my M&P compact in 40 for roughly the same size gun.
That being said, my wife's Sig 232 in 380, to me, recoils more than my M&P compact in 40 for roughly the same size gun.
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chaparrito
Member
Carry what you shoot well. A .22 in the eye beats a .40 in the shoulder any day.
Triathloncoach
Member
So the odds that you will ever need to fire your gun in self defense. Multiplied by the odds that a larger caliber bullet would significantly increase a positive outcome for you. Yes, you never know and be prepared...........
Might as well play powerball.
I'm buying myself a Glock 42 next month and putting my Glock 19 on the night stand.
Might as well play powerball.
I'm buying myself a Glock 42 next month and putting my Glock 19 on the night stand.
Erich
Member
First off, I carry a .380 sometimes. And I fully trust every grown-up to decide what's best for his/her own carry based on his/her individual circumstances/requirements.
Years ago in the early online caliber wars, I coined the signature line "Shot placement is king; adequate penetration is queen; everything else is just angels dancing on the heads of pins." The first question, accordingly, is can you hit the vital areas (heart/aorta, brain/spinal cord) with your gun and ammo at the quick speed necessary? (A related question is, do you know where these structures are in a human attacker? Gray's Anatomy can be found online and is worth a study: Gray, Henry. 1918. Anatomy of the Human Body .) And then let's look at adequacy of penetration to damage those structures (a bullet that won't penetrate to the vitals is not going to suffice) . . . and only then should we think about energy, expansion, etc.
My friend Mas (who is kind enough to not give me grief for doing so, myself) says, "Friends don't let friends carry mouse guns." I've thought about this quite a bit, because when Mas says something, he's got a hell of a lot of research and experience behind his statement. Which got me thinking about the whole "mousegun" thing.
Mas certainly has a point in this particular statement. First of all, unless you're a pretty skilled/experienced shooter, small guns are difficult to work - their size makes them hard to shoot accurately with even the minimal recoil of the light rounds they launch (and accurate shooting is crucial for the shot placement necessary for adequate penetration with light rounds) and they don't always function as well as larger guns. And the rounds themselves aren't as reliably effective: I've worked on three separate shooting cases in which .380 JHPs failed to adequately penetrate. On the other hand, I've worked on so many cases in which a .380 was used quite effectively - I've never seen a case in which .380 ball failed to penetrate adequately.
Based on the shooting cases I've worked on, I believe that .380s (and .32 ACPs, FWIW) can be adequately penetrative to get to "the good stuff" if ball ammo is used. I don't trust these calibers to penetrate adequately with JHP rounds - and gel tests confirm that no .32 or .380 JHP presently on the market will meet FBI penetration protocols.
Naturally, the performance of your ammo in your gun is what's at issue. I (personally) carry ball in .380 or .32 ACP. I'm not weighing in here on whether ball ammo is a good idea from an overpenetration standpoint - I've worked on one case in which .380 ball overpenetrated the leg of the intended target and shot another person beyond him . . . but the leg probably isn't where an expert will be aiming, is it?
Years ago in the early online caliber wars, I coined the signature line "Shot placement is king; adequate penetration is queen; everything else is just angels dancing on the heads of pins." The first question, accordingly, is can you hit the vital areas (heart/aorta, brain/spinal cord) with your gun and ammo at the quick speed necessary? (A related question is, do you know where these structures are in a human attacker? Gray's Anatomy can be found online and is worth a study: Gray, Henry. 1918. Anatomy of the Human Body .) And then let's look at adequacy of penetration to damage those structures (a bullet that won't penetrate to the vitals is not going to suffice) . . . and only then should we think about energy, expansion, etc.
My friend Mas (who is kind enough to not give me grief for doing so, myself) says, "Friends don't let friends carry mouse guns." I've thought about this quite a bit, because when Mas says something, he's got a hell of a lot of research and experience behind his statement. Which got me thinking about the whole "mousegun" thing.
Mas certainly has a point in this particular statement. First of all, unless you're a pretty skilled/experienced shooter, small guns are difficult to work - their size makes them hard to shoot accurately with even the minimal recoil of the light rounds they launch (and accurate shooting is crucial for the shot placement necessary for adequate penetration with light rounds) and they don't always function as well as larger guns. And the rounds themselves aren't as reliably effective: I've worked on three separate shooting cases in which .380 JHPs failed to adequately penetrate. On the other hand, I've worked on so many cases in which a .380 was used quite effectively - I've never seen a case in which .380 ball failed to penetrate adequately.
Based on the shooting cases I've worked on, I believe that .380s (and .32 ACPs, FWIW) can be adequately penetrative to get to "the good stuff" if ball ammo is used. I don't trust these calibers to penetrate adequately with JHP rounds - and gel tests confirm that no .32 or .380 JHP presently on the market will meet FBI penetration protocols.
Naturally, the performance of your ammo in your gun is what's at issue. I (personally) carry ball in .380 or .32 ACP. I'm not weighing in here on whether ball ammo is a good idea from an overpenetration standpoint - I've worked on one case in which .380 ball overpenetrated the leg of the intended target and shot another person beyond him . . . but the leg probably isn't where an expert will be aiming, is it?
James Bond likes the Beretta 32 cal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU98uP7pXA8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU98uP7pXA8
sgtsandman
US Veteran
Depending on the round, .380 can be adequate. 9x19, .38 Special, .357, or something in .45 would be better.
In my humble opinion, carry what's comfortable and concealable. Who cares what the caliber is as long as you can shoot well enough to put holes in the bad guy. The more important question is: "how accurate can you shoot when you're in a highly intense situation with some nut job intending to inflict bodily harm?" In my experience with bullseye shooting, even a small case of nerves can ruin your day. When your life is in danger I would guess that you'd be in a high state of anxiety.
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