3913: I Just Can't Shoot this Pistol

[lwestatbus]

I've posted a couple of threads about a new-to-me 3913 9mm covering sight issues. I've now done everything I can to the pistol itself but I just can't shoot it properly. I'm posting today to see if anyone has any suggestions for me to improve my results with this. I like the pistol overall and it fits a nice niche in my concealed carry collection but I can't carry something I can't shoot well.

First, "can't shoot it properly" means my shots are all low and to the left shooting with a two handed Weaver grip. At 20' shots are 1-2" left and cluster about 3" low, though there is an embarrassing vertical spread of the shots. I am a competent shot and in every range session where I've had poor results with the 3913 I've fired another handgun from my collection of S&W Model 60 revolvers, Kimber .45 1911s, or a Kimber Micro 9. I shoot these pistols right where I'm aiming with nice tight groups.

I've added the Hogue grip to fill out the grip on the 3913 and restored the sights on the pistol to factory originals. (The sights on the pistol when I acquired it were worn out night sights with a front sight that was slightly too high.) The new old stock factory sights made a definite improvement on the fuzziness I experienced with the old sights (subject of an earlier post). Also, when I shoot the pistol from a rest it shoots slightly to the left but vertically at the point of aim.

I've studied the "what you're doing wrong" chart for bullet impact and it is telling me I may be using too much or too little trigger finger and that I may be tightening my finger tips. I've experimented with all of this to no avail.

There are two things that bother me when shooting this pistol: First, the length of the grip just doesn't seem right to me. A standard 1911 grip perfectly fills my hand. I also own a 6906 which is overly large for me necessitating me rotating my hand slightly to get a good trigger squeeze, but I don't have trouble shooting where I'm aiming with the 6906.

Second, the trigger on the 3913 is HEAVY. When I try to focus on getting the best possible "surprise me" trigger squeeze in single action it seems to take forever for the seer to break and sometimes I have to stop the squeeze and start over with breathing, sight picture, and trigger. I don't have a scale to measure the pull but it is orders of magnitude heavier than my other pistols.

If I shoot this pistol at a silhouette using rapid fire point and shoot techniques (not precision aimed fire with a deliberate sight picture) I get results similar to this kind of shooting with my other handguns. Shots are in the silhouette and I can reliably count on all 2 or 3 shots fired in quick succession going into the target area. However I want the option of taking reliable aimed shot if appropriate and I just have no confidence I can do that with this pistol.

Counting original purchase price, new sights, spare mags, and gunsmithing I've got about $600 into this pistol. If I'd known this going in (original price was $300) I'd have bought a new 1911 in 9mm. I'm reluctant to dump any more money into this (e.g., trigger job) without having absolute confidence it will improve my performance.

So, I'm looking for any advice on whether I can improve my performance with this particular pistol. I am totally open to the problem being with me but... as I have said, I shoot my other pistols quite competently.

Many thanks in advance for any help.

 

[MichiganScott]

You have a grip issue. Are both of your thumbs resting on the left side of the frame or are they locked down on each other like we were taught to do when shooting revolvers?

 

[Cal44]

Isn't the rear sight adjustable for windage?

There should be a small set screw in the rear sight.

 

[MackTech]

I grew up on SA/DA triggers but had accuracy issues with my 3913. I, like you switched the grips to the fatter Houge grips and it helped a lot. Can I do headshots at 25 yards like my 1911 , no, but quick drawing and firing on multiple targets with in 15 yards, it shines. I bought a 9mm shield to replace the 3913 but sold it after 1 month, I was better with the 3913. Keep trying!

 

[NMPinNYC]

Please put me in for this great karma of a 3913!

 

[MattyD380]

I had the same issue with my 3913TSW. Yet I'm very capable with a 6904/06.

Clearly it must have something to do with the grip. My theory is that I just wasn't able lock the 3913 down under recoil, and the shots would "slip" away from POA. I feel like the wider grip on the 69XX guns lets me exert a lot more lateral force with my support hand... which helps to stabilize the gun. I find I get the same advantage with my Beretta 92 Compact. And I shoot both of those platforms very well.

For single stack DA/SA carry, I went with the Sig P239. While it's not quite as svelte as the 3913, I find it outrageously accurate in my hands. Strangely, its grip is nearly as thin as that of the 3913... yet for some reason, I get a better purchase with my support hand. And the addition of Karl Nill grips or Hogue G10s improve that even more. Also, I think the heavier slide on the P239 might keep it a little more stable while shooting. Caveat: these are all theories, based on "educated conjecture"--not science.

At the end of the day, I have to conclude not every pistol is going to work for every shooter. The 3913 is a great gun, just didn't suit me quite as well as others.

Though I still often think about buying it back from the friend I sold it to...

 

[GHEN]

At the end of the day, I have to conclude not every pistol is going to work for every shooter.

This is gospel. My 3953 is stupid accurate but sometimes small ergonomic conflicts between shooter and gun make a big difference.
It sounds like you are experiencing real world self-defense appropriate accuracy but if it is shaking your belief in the pistol it may just be a "doesn't work for me" situation.

Sorry, great gun otherwise.

GHEN

 

[GaryS]

What are you using for ammunition? I had the exact same problem with my pre rail 3913TSW and my 3953. I was using 115gr rounds at the time. I found that moving to 124gr improved both issues greatly (I still pull a bit to the left, but that's me). It's even less of an issue with 147gr.

Here is an picture of my target with my new pre rail 3953TSW.

As you can see, I still do pull a bit to my right, but not as much as I used to.

This is an earlier target with my pre rail 3913TSW with 115gr rounds.

I can't comment on the "heavy" feeling of the trigger, all of my 3913s have a good trigger pull. The DAO are a bit heavier, but once you get used to that, it's not bad. Actually similar to a DA trigger on a K frame. Which I think was the goal there.

Like you, I was incredibly frustrated until I has an "AH HAH" moment with regard to the ammunition.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Has anyone else shot the pistol? Same issue?

Some thoughts..........................

20 ft is 7yds......bore is 1/2" or so below the sights.... bullets travel in an arc.

What hold are you using? A 6 O'clock hold or covering the intended POI with the front dot? Using a 6 O'clock hold on a bulleye target at 21 ft almost guarantees the shots will be low.

Three dot sights line up the dots horizontally ....don't line up top of front sight with the top of the rear sight.........

you replaced the rear sight ...... is it centered?? ...maybe move rear sight to the right........

Ammo weight will also impact............ I use 124gr or maybe 115 ......... not 147

 

[Big Cholla]

Echoing other posts; you have two problems, .... you have a grip and reaction to the shot problem...and....you have now developed a lack of confidence in this handgun and your ability to make it shoot accurately.

The weight of the trigger pull is significant in that you have developed a habit in 'staging' your trigger pulls. That is OK in target shooting, but is a terrible habit that can get you killed in self defense. I would get the trigger pull 'fixed' just because it should be.

IMHO, you should find a competent handgun shooting coach to watch you shoot this handgun. Then follow his advise.

In the meantime do this while practicing: using mild loads....place the gun in your strong hand firmly, wrap your support hand around the strong hand, make sure that the gun when in firing position is lined up directly with the strong hand forearm, interlock your thumbs in any manner that is comfortable to you, press upward with the index finger on your support hand against the trigger guard, maintain the same pressure every time you are pulling the trigger.

Your body should be positioned as a "C" with about 60% of your weight on the front ball of the feet with your upper body leaning forward. The strong arm should be tense in pushing while the support arm should be tense in pulling. Your chest from arm to arm should be tense. Your feet should be firmly planted and slightly pigeontoed. All these positionings should be consistent from shot to shot.

In the first few shots of any practice session you should look slightly over the sights, at the target and at the shot be looking at the rear of the handgun. Watch the slide work and the ejection of the brass. Do that a few times and then forget about it. Go back to using the sights. DO NOT look at the target after every shot to see where it hit. Make sure that when the gun fires you are looking at that front sight and nothing else.

Do all the above and watch your groups move back to point of aim

 

[lwestatbus]

Thanks much for all of the great and thoughtful comments. I want to reply to a few of them in detail but that will have to wait just a bit. But I really appreciate the comments and insights.

 

[NevadaBob]

Iwestatbus...I'm sending you a pm.

 

[lwestatbus]

Thanks

Has anyone else shot the pistol? Same issue?

Had two range officers/instructors shoot the pistol on two different visits. One put the shots right through the ten ring and the other shot right where I did. Go figure.

What hold are you using? A 6 O'clock hold or covering the intended POI with the front dot? Using a 6 O'clock hold on a bulleye target at 21 ft almost guarantees the shots will be low.

I actually shoot at 2" Shoot 'n' See pasters on plain 11 x 17 paper and hold at 6 o'clock on the pasters.

Three dot sights line up the dots horizontally ....don't line up top of front sight with the top of the rear sight.........

That's what I do. (I'd also contacted S&W about designed POA on this pistol and they replied it was intended to cover the intended POI with the front sight dot, not to hold under it.) But when I comment on the POI being low it is relative to my POA.

you replaced the rear sight ...... is it centered?? ...maybe move rear sight to the right........

Had the new sights installed by a gun smith of good reputation, though he is more a 1911 guy than a 3g guy. I am definitely going to move the sight to adjust for windage but want to be sure I can get the elevation under control first as that is the most vexing problem.

Ammo weight will also impact............ I use 124gr or maybe 115 ......... not 147

Had the same POI problems with the original (to me) sights and experimented with all three bullet weights. I had no discernible difference in POI with the three weights.

Thanks much for the thoughtful advice.

 

[TercGen]

Lots of good advice already in this thread, and since I just spent the weekend helping a friend get used to shooting his new 908, I'll add a few ideas.

First, coming from 1911 semi-auto's, the 3913 trigger is going to take some practice to get right. I've found 1911's to be the easiest pistols to shoot accurately, but they kind of spoil you for a TDA trigger like this. To start, I would recommend doing a lot of dry-fire practice with your 3913's DA trigger pull. Think of it as building muscle strength and memory, and don't go overly slow to begin with or get caught up on you're sight picture or being perfect. Get your hand used to the trigger pull and weight, with a secondary goal of trying to keep the gun steady while you're doing this. After the gun feels more natural in hand from this practice, slow the pull down and concentrate on more finesse with a smooth trigger break and steady front sight.

Secondly, I prefer to place the pad (or middle) of the end of the finger on the trigger when shooting. This seems to me to be the best way to mitigate shooting to the left.

Lastly, leaning forward with your stance, locking the elbows out, and keeping a firm (but not a shaky death grip) on the gun while firing will give you a good base and hopefully help with the shots 'dipping.'

I'm sure that you already have heard some of this advice, but basically what I'm stressing is doing lots of dry-fire practice off the range to get yourself used to this pistol. It pays huge dividends at the range (and can save lots of money too).

Best of luck with you're 3913!

 

[K Frame Keith]

Sold mine, wish I hadn't. I'll take it! But seriously, it is a thin pistol and needs a proper grip. Once you get the hang of it you'll be sold.

 

[lwestatbus]

You have a grip issue. Are both of your thumbs resting on the left side of the frame or are they locked down on each other like we were taught to do when shooting revolvers?

Both on the left side of the frame--right hand (shooting hand) thumb on top of the left thumb.

 

[lwestatbus]

Echoing other posts; you have two problems, .... you have a grip and reaction to the shot problem...and....you have now developed a lack of confidence in this handgun and your ability to make it shoot accurately.

True.

The weight of the trigger pull is significant in that you have developed a habit in 'staging' your trigger pulls. That is OK in target shooting, but is a terrible habit that can get you killed in self defense. I would get the trigger pull 'fixed' just because it should be.

Not sure exactly what you mean here, especially about 'staging'. I have learned that this pistol has a very short reset if you control how far you let it out after a shot. Is that what you mean by staging? My major concern with my performance stems from doing deliberate, slow fire, focus on the basics of breathing, sight picture, and trigger squeeze. If I can't master that your comment on confidence is right on target.

In the meantime do this while practicing: using mild loads....place the gun in your strong hand firmly, wrap your support hand around the strong hand, make sure that the gun when in firing position is lined up directly with the strong hand forearm, interlock your thumbs in any manner that is comfortable to you, press upward with the index finger on your support hand against the trigger guard, maintain the same pressure every time you are pulling the trigger.

Your body should be positioned as a "C" with about 60% of your weight on the front ball of the feet with your upper body leaning forward. The strong arm should be tense in pushing while the support arm should be tense in pulling. Your chest from arm to arm should be tense. Your feet should be firmly planted and slightly pigeontoed. All these positionings should be consistent from shot to shot.

In the first few shots of any practice session you should look slightly over the sights, at the target and at the shot be looking at the rear of the handgun. Watch the slide work and the ejection of the brass. Do that a few times and then forget about it. Go back to using the sights. DO NOT look at the target after every shot to see where it hit. Make sure that when the gun fires you are looking at that front sight and nothing else.

Much of what you write here is what I am already doing but I will pay attention to some of the details which are new to me, at least in terms of thinking about them. The final paragraph in this block is definitely new to me.

Do all the above and watch your groups move back to point of aim

Hopefully.

A lot of your advice seems to focus on some shooting basics and I feel myself to be a competent handgun shot with a wide variety of firearms. My main focus on this particular pistol is to discover why fundamentals that work quite well for me in other handguns aren't working for me on this one.

Thanks for the thoughtful advice.

 

[lwestatbus]

What are you using for ammunition? I had the exact same problem with my pre rail 3913TSW and my 3953. I was using 115gr rounds at the time. I found that moving to 124gr improved both issues greatly (I still pull a bit to the left, but that's me). It's even less of an issue with 147gr.

I can't comment on the "heavy" feeling of the trigger, all of my 3913s have a good trigger pull. The DAO are a bit heavier, but once you get used to that, it's not bad. Actually similar to a DA trigger on a K frame. Which I think was the goal there.

Like you, I was incredibly frustrated until I has an "AH HAH" moment with regard to the ammunition.

I experimented with all three common bullet weights for 9mm and did not find any change in POI between them. This was a full box each in one session using the same techniques. This was before the sight change out.

 

[lwestatbus]

Isn't the rear sight adjustable for windage?

There should be a small set screw in the rear sight.

Yes, the rear sight is adjustable for windage and my gunsmith told me he had not put LockTite on the set screw in case I needed to make an adjustment. I'll definitely fiddle with this but my main priority is the abysmal performance, both POI and distribution in the vertical dimension.

 

[jsbethel]

I have to ask - did you change the recoil spring (part #100950000)? Something as simple and cheap as that may affect the accuracy.