.40 vs .45 caliber
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rrobertson
US Veteran
This has been gone over many times by DeltaKilo on the 1911 forums.
Ammo Can - 1911Forum
Just search posts in that thread area for posts from DeltaKilo you will have hundreds of reading hours of actual real world ballistics information. From Lab tests to crime scene ballistics write ups on pretty much every caliber and every calibers grain weight variences along with FMJ/JHP ballistics performance in all the above. Have fun reading I know I did. He has alot of information and experience.
Ammo Can - 1911Forum
Just search posts in that thread area for posts from DeltaKilo you will have hundreds of reading hours of actual real world ballistics information. From Lab tests to crime scene ballistics write ups on pretty much every caliber and every calibers grain weight variences along with FMJ/JHP ballistics performance in all the above. Have fun reading I know I did. He has alot of information and experience.
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45acp is my favorite caliber, perfect for bowling pins, it has a hundred years of being a proven fight stopper. My night stand gun is a 45.
With that said on the days I choose to wear a bottom feeding, brass puker it is a 40. Hard to go wrong with either one.
No help I know.
With that said on the days I choose to wear a bottom feeding, brass puker it is a 40. Hard to go wrong with either one.
No help I know.
The .40 was developed after tests by the FBI and others to find the best overall cartridge for law enforcement. I think most members here will say: the 45 has more knockdown power, but shot placement is "king."
Most law enforcement now days go with the 40 over the 45 because:
1) The knockdown power is sufficient (better than the 38/9mm) and recoil is lighter so the "average cop" has a better chance of hitting what he/she points at and making it count.
2) You get more rounds for the same loaded weight gun - again more shots without reloading means there is a better chance of getting a hit in a vital area.
3) The 40 and 45 minimize the over penetration problem of the 9mm.
Most law enforcement now days go with the 40 over the 45 because:
1) The knockdown power is sufficient (better than the 38/9mm) and recoil is lighter so the "average cop" has a better chance of hitting what he/she points at and making it count.
2) You get more rounds for the same loaded weight gun - again more shots without reloading means there is a better chance of getting a hit in a vital area.
3) The 40 and 45 minimize the over penetration problem of the 9mm.
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Basically I see it as:
The .45 is a GREAT round, but the .40 is almost as good and you can stuff a few more in the magazine. Just that simple!
Chief38
The .45 is a GREAT round, but the .40 is almost as good and you can stuff a few more in the magazine. Just that simple!
Chief38
scooter123
Member
IMO it's pretty much a tossup. Both carry similar levels of muzzle energy so in terms of power they are nearly equal. I chose to carry the 40 because with a +1 mag kit it allows me to carry 9 rounds in my Sig P239, which is compact enough to be easily concealed. If I carried a 45 that wouldn't be the case. However, I normally warm up in a range session with 45ACP in my 625 because the recoil is very similar to the P239 and it allows me to get lots of trigger time in double action.
Mule88
Member
I really dont think the bad guy will know if he was shot with a .45 or .40 I like em both, you do get more rounds in the .40 however. If I had to grab one it would be the one closest to me at the time.
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Packard
Member
Actually I believe the FBI settled on the 10mm as being the best cartridge, but so many of the agents had problems with the recoil that the backed off to 10mm light (.40 caliber).
If you can handle the recoil (and the expense) then for law enforcement the 10mm probably still is king. Improvements in barrier penetration in the last few years has reduced the edge that the 10mm has over the .40 though.
sigp220.45
US Veteran
The FBI never issued full power 10mm to agents, or even tested it with street agents. The gurus at the ammo lab started with a 180 grain bullet, shot it into gelatin at increasing velocities, and stopped when the bullet did what they wanted it to do. That was the 180 at about 950 fps.
At that point, some enterprising soul realized you could get the same performance in a shorter case that would fit into 9mm sized guns. The rest is history.
I've shot full power 10 out of a Bureau 1076 and it was very controllable. I doubt anyone would have had trouble with the recoil.
At the time of the adoption of 10mm the thinking was that the two power levels of round would be available in a similar fashion to the way the .357 Magnum and the .38 Special had been used for decades: the lower powered round for everyday use, with the more powerful load in reserve for special circumstances available with supervisory approval. It just never worked out that way.
For what its worth I still have a Bureau 10mm issued to me - but it has a 30 round magazine, a shoulder stock, and a full-auto selector.
venomballistics
Member
only a few have had the will, and the environment to do any sort of ballistics testing.
My research is incomplete as I kept running out of targets.
let me share a few findings.
My targets were limb rats and bunnies, calibers of 30, and 44.
first string was 3 loads for 30-06 using cast bullets at a velocity of 800 fps
150 grain flat point, 180G rn and a 200G rn of identical profile as the 180, only longer.
with velocity common the 180 and 200G bullets never earned a "pop and drop" kill on a rabbit while the 150G flat point would do so one out of four.
nest step was all three bullets then loaded to 1050 FPS
this improved the ratios to where both the 180 and 200 grain RN designs would leave a rabbit where you shot it about 30% of the time while the 150G flat point would leave a cripple out of every seven.
seemed weight had no impact upon results but the point design most certainly did and velocity also contributed.
enter the caliber of 44 with a 215 grain swc loaded to just 750 FPS ... it never failed to plant a bunny. its performance was absolute despite being mostly equal in weight to the heaviest 30 cal and less speed, the value of the bore alone trumped all.
next would have been a battery of tests to include 32, 38 and 40 cal. however the garden was made safe before all could be resolved, and the requisite ice in my veins thawed when the bumper crop of bunnies was replaced by a hoard of kittens thus ending any further research.
what I do have is this.
the only energy that counts, is that energy deposited in the target. the flat points did put more of that energy into the subjects.
diameter must not be discounted. big bores smash things with brilliant results even when they are at a velocity and energy disadvantage to a small bore.
from this, I must go with 45 over 40 as the effect of bore diameter is just too marked to ignore.
My research is incomplete as I kept running out of targets.
let me share a few findings.
My targets were limb rats and bunnies, calibers of 30, and 44.
first string was 3 loads for 30-06 using cast bullets at a velocity of 800 fps
150 grain flat point, 180G rn and a 200G rn of identical profile as the 180, only longer.
with velocity common the 180 and 200G bullets never earned a "pop and drop" kill on a rabbit while the 150G flat point would do so one out of four.
nest step was all three bullets then loaded to 1050 FPS
this improved the ratios to where both the 180 and 200 grain RN designs would leave a rabbit where you shot it about 30% of the time while the 150G flat point would leave a cripple out of every seven.
seemed weight had no impact upon results but the point design most certainly did and velocity also contributed.
enter the caliber of 44 with a 215 grain swc loaded to just 750 FPS ... it never failed to plant a bunny. its performance was absolute despite being mostly equal in weight to the heaviest 30 cal and less speed, the value of the bore alone trumped all.
next would have been a battery of tests to include 32, 38 and 40 cal. however the garden was made safe before all could be resolved, and the requisite ice in my veins thawed when the bumper crop of bunnies was replaced by a hoard of kittens thus ending any further research.
what I do have is this.
the only energy that counts, is that energy deposited in the target. the flat points did put more of that energy into the subjects.
diameter must not be discounted. big bores smash things with brilliant results even when they are at a velocity and energy disadvantage to a small bore.
from this, I must go with 45 over 40 as the effect of bore diameter is just too marked to ignore.
As I expected, the .45 seems to set a comfortable standard for comparison but it is OK to carry the .40 if you so desire. I have carried both concealed but here in shorts and t-shirt country, I have several lighter auto's in .40 (Kahr),and don't want to feel like I must have a lite 45.
For many years I carried both the .38 and 9mm and recently felt like I wanted to step up daily to a larger caliber.
If a person was absolutely sure he would need to defend his life that day he would probably want to carry something really bad---like a bazooka.
For many years I carried both the .38 and 9mm and recently felt like I wanted to step up daily to a larger caliber.
If a person was absolutely sure he would need to defend his life that day he would probably want to carry something really bad---like a bazooka.
Jc85
Member
now that would be a sight.. "whats that on your back?"
what this?...nothing.
40c for me. no reason behind it, fell into my lap.
45 ACP v 40 S&W
this is the way I see it:
45 acp has more knockdown power but is slower and the gun can hold less bullets.
the 40 S&W holds more bullets, is faster, but doesn't quite have as much knockdown power. and for carry purposes, the 40 is slimmer so its easier to conceal than the 45 and weighs less but with the right holster and shirt, they are both great guns.
its also not a matter of what people think is better, its what you are more comfortable and accurate with.
this is the way I see it:
45 acp has more knockdown power but is slower and the gun can hold less bullets.
the 40 S&W holds more bullets, is faster, but doesn't quite have as much knockdown power. and for carry purposes, the 40 is slimmer so its easier to conceal than the 45 and weighs less but with the right holster and shirt, they are both great guns.
its also not a matter of what people think is better, its what you are more comfortable and accurate with.
Not that my opinion or experience means much but....
Either round is good. Most people find the recoil of a .40 S&W to be a little sharp but recoil is pretty much a preceived force.
I like the .45acp and have been carrying a 1911 for several years in work. Not once have I seen anyone hit with a .45 or .40 continue aggression. I have seen more one shot fatals from .45acp but I have seen more shot by .40 S&W.
As stated by another poster, the shootee will not be able to say what caliber he was hit by. Nor can he say how fast the bullet was travelling. If he is able to say anything, it will be asking for medical attention.
I appreciate the fact that you have an interest in those two calibers as opposed to smaller calibers.
Either round is good. Most people find the recoil of a .40 S&W to be a little sharp but recoil is pretty much a preceived force.
I like the .45acp and have been carrying a 1911 for several years in work. Not once have I seen anyone hit with a .45 or .40 continue aggression. I have seen more one shot fatals from .45acp but I have seen more shot by .40 S&W.
As stated by another poster, the shootee will not be able to say what caliber he was hit by. Nor can he say how fast the bullet was travelling. If he is able to say anything, it will be asking for medical attention.
I appreciate the fact that you have an interest in those two calibers as opposed to smaller calibers.
Not disagreeing with your logic but with your measurments.
My full size 1911 guns (other than Ruger) are about 1/4 inch narrower than any .40 that Glock offers. The full size 1911 will measure out at .9 inches at the slide. The Glock goes out at 1.18 inches. I use Glock as the model since the most .40 S&W is in Glock
Other than the measurement, I agree with your statement.
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dave-arlington-va
Member
I have to go with OldMan45 here. It'd darn impossible in IMHO to beat a 45 however the two 40 cal I own, S&W40 FS and Sig P239 40 have never failed in any respect. One is bedside the other is an occasional carry. My favorite carry remains a 642 and Model 10 round grip. I'm old fashioned that way I suppose. I have also never walked out the door feeling underarmed and then again I believe that the words found in that great movie Monty Python "The Holy Grail" - run away! run away!
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A 9mm, .40 SW and .45 ACP have about the same muzzle energy. If the bullet stops in the target in a vital area, any one will do the job. The trick is hitting a vital area.
To maintain proficiency, you have to shoot 200 rounds or more a month - 100 to get back to baseline, and another 100 to work on improvements. That's $30 for 9mm, $60 for .40SW and $90 for .45 ACP, half as much from Wally World, much less if you reload.
To maintain proficiency, you have to shoot 200 rounds or more a month - 100 to get back to baseline, and another 100 to work on improvements. That's $30 for 9mm, $60 for .40SW and $90 for .45 ACP, half as much from Wally World, much less if you reload.
How many times does one confront multiple targets? A competent shooter makes do with fewer shots.
My experience has been after the first couple shots, the perps will either run off or surrender.
Almost agreed, and certainly do not disagree.
Yet a marginal hit with a .45acp will likely cause more trauma than a vital hit with a 9mm.
As to cost, I buy wholesale and pay a lot less than $45 per 100 for 230 gr .45acp rounds. No, it is not cheaper than a 9mm round but a more effective caliber and I feel my life is worth the difference in cost.
Moonman
Member
The 45ACP makes a nicer wound channel, but SHOT PLACEMENT is still the KEY.
I like/love the 1911 period.
I like/love the 1911 period.
ElectroMotive
Member
I cant believe its almost 2012 and we are still comparing service calibers to one another. Furthermore we are still using terms like muzzle energy, energy dump, and knockdown power when there has been ample evidence that state those terms have nothing to do with terminal ballistics (aka the science of what bullets do in human bodies).
20+ years ago an FBI Special Agent named Urey Patrick, with the FBI's Firearms Training Unit, wrote a landmark paper called Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness. It has withstood peer review, academia review, and most importantly, the test of time. It goes into detail of how pistol caliber rounds work, and why, without talking over the readers head. Google the title, and you can pull it up in .pdf form.
Pick a good bullet from Dr Roberts reccomended data set, in whatever caliber you like, and then go shooting.
20+ years ago an FBI Special Agent named Urey Patrick, with the FBI's Firearms Training Unit, wrote a landmark paper called Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness. It has withstood peer review, academia review, and most importantly, the test of time. It goes into detail of how pistol caliber rounds work, and why, without talking over the readers head. Google the title, and you can pull it up in .pdf form.
Pick a good bullet from Dr Roberts reccomended data set, in whatever caliber you like, and then go shooting.
ElectroMotive
Member
If one were to stroll over to KeepandBearArms.com, which keeps track of as many self defense shootings as possible, the number of shooting involving multiple assailants is quite high. Not only thay but if you go back to when they first started, you will note that the numbers of multiple attacker shootings are a growing trend
How many shootings with multiple armed attackers have you been involved in?
There's a gentlman sitting next to me who is a former patrolman and detective with a large agency in North Texas who has been in several shooting with multiple badguys, he says none ever gave up or surrendered after the first shots. Only when they realized they had lost did they give it up. But hey, gunfights are fluid situations and cannot know what is going to happen in them.
How wrong can you get? I dont know whats worse, the fact that you made that claim, that you believe that non-sense, or that you are spreading it.
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machz1
Member
dont forget one of the big issues for LE was the actual frame size and weight of the 45's. a lot of smaller framed agents and women couldnt comfortably handle it. the .40 is a GREAT cartridge and was developed specifically for maximum LE needs. it has basically the exact same speed with only a slight loss of ft/lbs. most LE cartridges are looked at in the 950 ft per sec speed for ideal penetration of various substances that officers might encounter.
That is why I put "average cop" in quotes. I have seen all kinds and it is a great concern to put an officer on the street armed with a handgun they struggled to control.
When we still used revolvers, some of them had trouble shooting a qualification course of 50 or 60 rounds of double action because of the "hard trigger pull." I am a revolver fan, but it is not for everyone.
I think that the 40 is a fine cartridge. I have carried both the 45 and the 40, but the 45 is not for everyone either.
elm_creek_smith
US Veteran
I carried an M1911A1 in .45 until the Army forced that M9 thing on us and never doubted it. Now, my agency issues the Glock 22 in .40, and I don't doubt it's capabilities either.
Off duty, I carry a 3 inch Model 13-3 in .357 Magnum. Yes, I'm a true believer.
ECS
Off duty, I carry a 3 inch Model 13-3 in .357 Magnum. Yes, I'm a true believer.
ECS
I've shot quite a number of animals with handguns. Consequently I can't believe in stopping power no matter how much I want to. Big bores are psychologically comforting.........but they really guarantee nothing. Adequate penetration in a vital area will cause death. Instant stopping is awfully random. In my own experience on animals over 3 pounds the best "stoppers" have been the .22 WMR and the 9mm Parabellum ---which proves nothing since the statistical sample is small.
I'm sure most everyone here knows there are only two ways to stop a living creature. Hitting the central nervous system or blood loss.
So, as some have stated, the main thing that counts is shot placement. It is EVERYTHING. People have been killed with virtually every caliber known to man. What's perfect for you is a weapon & caliber that you shoot very well. That means, hitting your target consistantly & conducting reloading & stoppage drills until they are second nature,
After the fight is over, people won't remember what gun or caliber was used by whom. They will only remember who won.
Just remember, any handgun caliber will kill you. A .45 will kill you better!
So, as some have stated, the main thing that counts is shot placement. It is EVERYTHING. People have been killed with virtually every caliber known to man. What's perfect for you is a weapon & caliber that you shoot very well. That means, hitting your target consistantly & conducting reloading & stoppage drills until they are second nature,
After the fight is over, people won't remember what gun or caliber was used by whom. They will only remember who won.
Just remember, any handgun caliber will kill you. A .45 will kill you better!
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