feralmerril
Absent Comrade
One here. This was sent back to the factory in 1949 and again in 1950. Target sights were added then. It was my most accurate .44 special when I tried about 4 of them off the bench
.44 Hand Ejector First Model (Triple Lock) question
- Thread starter mrcvs
- Start date
I would be interested in the cylinder throat size of the triple locks. It is supposed to be a very accurate revolver, and throat size has an affect on accuracy. Later .44 Smiths seem to have a throat size around .432. So I am wondering if that was the standard back then too.
Interesting question. I went and checked mine just now. My TL throats check in at .4315". (edited to correct number. I don't know what happened when I posted, but it wasn't correct. It is now)
All my other N frames in 44 are from before the endurance upgrades at which time the throats were tightened from .432" to .430" in 44 caliber S&W's. The original throat size of.432" which was std from the start of the 44 magnums matched the original Remington (and later Winchester) lead factory bullets, but are a couple thousandths too large to give the very best accuracy with later ('60's and later) jacketed bullets which were designed to match groove diameter of the barrel, and most lead bullets made since that time frame as well. Most guns with .432" throats will shoot very well with lead and even a lot of jacketed, but those made with .430" throats are really good shooters as a rule.
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My triple lock guages at .432" in each chamber.
bmg60
Member
Dave
You are correct I have 3 7 1/2 Targets
1 blued 44Special
1 Nickel 44 special with a Extra Cyl in 44 Russian shipped in 1906 as a protype
1 Blued in 44/40 shipped in 1910 to seattle.
Jim
Most of my triple locks were purchased before every body started looking for them. I bought my first one in 1975.
Heres the story on the 44/40 7 1/2
Century Old Triple Lock Target 7 1/2 in 44-40 Cal.
Two years ago a fellow member of the SWCA perused my display at a Washington Arms Collector show in Puyallup, and took note of my interest in rare variations in S&W revolvers. Sometime later, an elderly gentleman approached him about selling an heirloom revolver. After meeting the gentleman and inspecting his revolver, he contacted me about adding it to my collection.
The revolver is an original parts matching Triple Lock Target in .44-40 Winchester with 7 ½" barrel. The package included a period correct shoulder holster and a box of ammunition. It was ordered by the 83 year old gentleman's father, and shipped on February 28, 1910 to a hardware store in western Washington—one hundred years ago today. It has been in the family until now.
His father was an avid hunter, and after taking delivery, carried the revolver throughout a lifetime of adventures, including taking mountain lions. He wanted a handgun in the same chambering as the rifle he used while hunting, something more powerful than a .44 Special loading.
The revolver shows carry wear, and is definitely not a safe queen, but it is one of the rarest S&W revolvers ever made. In my long experience as a collector, this is the first revolver of this type and caliber that I've seen. I am very happy I was able to acquire it. I have other .44-40s-- Triple Locks and 2nd models, but this one stands alone.
I f anyone has factory documented information on similar guns that I can provide when I display it, please let me know.
Enjoy the information and the picture, this could be the only 7 1/2 Target made in this Caliber.
Jim Fisher
Heres the picture of the gun.
You are correct I have 3 7 1/2 Targets
1 blued 44Special
1 Nickel 44 special with a Extra Cyl in 44 Russian shipped in 1906 as a protype
1 Blued in 44/40 shipped in 1910 to seattle.
Jim
Most of my triple locks were purchased before every body started looking for them. I bought my first one in 1975.
Heres the story on the 44/40 7 1/2
Century Old Triple Lock Target 7 1/2 in 44-40 Cal.
Two years ago a fellow member of the SWCA perused my display at a Washington Arms Collector show in Puyallup, and took note of my interest in rare variations in S&W revolvers. Sometime later, an elderly gentleman approached him about selling an heirloom revolver. After meeting the gentleman and inspecting his revolver, he contacted me about adding it to my collection.
The revolver is an original parts matching Triple Lock Target in .44-40 Winchester with 7 ½" barrel. The package included a period correct shoulder holster and a box of ammunition. It was ordered by the 83 year old gentleman's father, and shipped on February 28, 1910 to a hardware store in western Washington—one hundred years ago today. It has been in the family until now.
His father was an avid hunter, and after taking delivery, carried the revolver throughout a lifetime of adventures, including taking mountain lions. He wanted a handgun in the same chambering as the rifle he used while hunting, something more powerful than a .44 Special loading.
The revolver shows carry wear, and is definitely not a safe queen, but it is one of the rarest S&W revolvers ever made. In my long experience as a collector, this is the first revolver of this type and caliber that I've seen. I am very happy I was able to acquire it. I have other .44-40s-- Triple Locks and 2nd models, but this one stands alone.
I f anyone has factory documented information on similar guns that I can provide when I display it, please let me know.
Enjoy the information and the picture, this could be the only 7 1/2 Target made in this Caliber.
Jim Fisher
Heres the picture of the gun.
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ElToro
Member
I picked this one up a couple years back in 44. Somebody cut it down a long time ago and was nice enough to add pre war magnas and re shape the sight. It's surprisingly accurate for what it is.
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I was fortunates to acquire this 6 1/2" .44 Special Target a few years ago. It is still the most $ I have ever paid for a S&W although I've sold one for more money.
Of course, I have no regret. It is a fine shooting revolver but the sight combination is difficult for my eyes to see and I'm not about to rework the sights. This is a three digit special order with butt swivel removed for shooting with the Sanderson grips.
Seems to me, the problem is not so much finding a triple lock as it is finding a good one.
Of course, I have no regret. It is a fine shooting revolver but the sight combination is difficult for my eyes to see and I'm not about to rework the sights. This is a three digit special order with butt swivel removed for shooting with the Sanderson grips.
Seems to me, the problem is not so much finding a triple lock as it is finding a good one.
44 special Dave
Member
Thanks for the picture and the background of the gun.
When I first saw the picture I thought: "bet that's the only one ever in that configuration"
Heck they probably made more triple locks in 45 special (aka 45 frankford)
I know some of those were "club" guns. And I do believe it is frankford not Frankfort.
Thanks again
Dave
When I first saw the picture I thought: "bet that's the only one ever in that configuration"
Heck they probably made more triple locks in 45 special (aka 45 frankford)
I know some of those were "club" guns. And I do believe it is frankford not Frankfort.
Thanks again
Dave
I also have a 4" nickel TL. Good shooter with Trail Boss and 240 gr. LSWCFPs. They are not as rare as a LH 24-3 3" Combat if there are plus or minus 15,000 of them.
I'll bet the survival rate isn't the same...
Short barrel .44 Triple lock
I had only one. I bought it in 1969 from a classified ad in the Arkansas Gazette. The price was $85.00.
The story was that the seller had gotten it from a retired Pine Bluff detective. Anyway, he had sent it in to be refurbished at the factory. It was a .44 Special, the barrel was 3 1/2 inches with a ramped Bauman sight and an adjustable rear from a K model. There was a factory service mark from 1952 under the left grip. The factory re-blue was still in top shape. I carried that gun concealed for several years, finally trading it for the first Colts Combat Commander I ever saw. One of my sons still has THAT gun which I gave him when he graduated Louisiana State University in Monroe in the mid 80s.
This sad story is one of many that demonstrates how experience is mostly gained from stuff you screwed up.
Regards, Porkie
I had only one. I bought it in 1969 from a classified ad in the Arkansas Gazette. The price was $85.00.
The story was that the seller had gotten it from a retired Pine Bluff detective. Anyway, he had sent it in to be refurbished at the factory. It was a .44 Special, the barrel was 3 1/2 inches with a ramped Bauman sight and an adjustable rear from a K model. There was a factory service mark from 1952 under the left grip. The factory re-blue was still in top shape. I carried that gun concealed for several years, finally trading it for the first Colts Combat Commander I ever saw. One of my sons still has THAT gun which I gave him when he graduated Louisiana State University in Monroe in the mid 80s.
This sad story is one of many that demonstrates how experience is mostly gained from stuff you screwed up.
Regards, Porkie
I got one from this guy ^^^
Lee's Landing Billy
Member
I picked this one up a couple years back in 44. Somebody cut it down a long time ago and was nice enough to add pre war magnas and re shape the sight. It's surprisingly accurate for what it is.
I have number 13XX. It is, as we speak, being "mortified" to this barrel length. Then off to Fords and when back this way fitted with MOPs. A famous S&W Forum member is doing the "bobbing" for me.
iskra
Member
Add my 'pair of triples' too, please! Pix below.
Both 6 1/2 barrel & 44 Spl. Original & matching. Target model SN 10xx and HE in 137xx. Sadly, the target mistreated with strange scratches around the exterior of the cylinder and mainly on right side. Ironically, otherwise the gun decent!* In considerable contrast, the HE, pristine except for apparently varnished/some such, grips. Otherwise perhaps high ninety percent gun, to think? Both these with me many years!
*For some time considered swapping in a 2nd or 3rd generation 44 Spl cylinder. Any ideas of how far from 'drop-in' such project might be? Then of course too, a decent refinish.
My take
Both 6 1/2 barrel & 44 Spl. Original & matching. Target model SN 10xx and HE in 137xx. Sadly, the target mistreated with strange scratches around the exterior of the cylinder and mainly on right side. Ironically, otherwise the gun decent!* In considerable contrast, the HE, pristine except for apparently varnished/some such, grips. Otherwise perhaps high ninety percent gun, to think? Both these with me many years!
*For some time considered swapping in a 2nd or 3rd generation 44 Spl cylinder. Any ideas of how far from 'drop-in' such project might be? Then of course too, a decent refinish.
My take
Attachments
The cylinder itself is no problem, they're all very similar dimensions within a couple of thousands in length and diameter. But you'll need a pre 1961 cylinder for a later extractor to work, because it must be right hand thread. The TL extractor will not align with the cyl alignment pins in the new cyl unless you move the pins. But you won't want to fit the TL star prongs to the new cyl, it'll fit sloppy in the TL cyl f you swap back.
The new ratchet will need the ctr pin hole enlarged slightly for the larger TL ctr pin; .020" larger to be exact.
A post 1921 replacement cyl will be heat treated until 1945. On non-magnums, the heat treating was ordered eliminated Oct. 12, 1945 on cyls as of with improved steel which negated the need for treating.
The importance of retaining the original TL extractor system is mainly because of the ext mushroom knob fitting the barrel notches and more importantly, the TL system is unique because the ctr pin is front loaded under spring tension. All other N frames have ctr pins that are rear loaded. That's why you'll notice the TL recoil shield does not have the divot/ramp to retract the ctr pin and close the cyl.
The new ratchet will need the ctr pin hole enlarged slightly for the larger TL ctr pin; .020" larger to be exact.
A post 1921 replacement cyl will be heat treated until 1945. On non-magnums, the heat treating was ordered eliminated Oct. 12, 1945 on cyls as of with improved steel which negated the need for treating.
The importance of retaining the original TL extractor system is mainly because of the ext mushroom knob fitting the barrel notches and more importantly, the TL system is unique because the ctr pin is front loaded under spring tension. All other N frames have ctr pins that are rear loaded. That's why you'll notice the TL recoil shield does not have the divot/ramp to retract the ctr pin and close the cyl.
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Don't know the survival rate, but can provide a good guess as to how many were born:
Estimated total number of Triple Lock Hand Ejectors in 44 Spl Including Misc. Calibers, and 455 Mk II
The ".44 Hand Ejector 1st Model" 'Triple Lock' serial # range is generally accepted to be 1 to 15375. As usual, not every serial # was used. The great majority of these were commercial models chambered in .44 Spl with the odd .45 Colt, .44-40, etc. Also included in this range are 812 chambered in .455 Mk II, 666 of this 1st batch produced for the British and in category #1 below. Pre production TLs include about a dozen chambered in the experimental .45 S&W Spl for the Army trials of 1906, some of which were turned into club guns; club guns total 20 in the Club Gun book.
Total 44 & misc cal. TLs:
So we roughly have a 15375 .44 TL serial # range, less 666 .455 TL contract guns = something under 14709 as usual, then subtract an additional 146 .455 TLs made and sold commercially with the 1st batch of .455 TLs = 14563, and subtract the last batch of 691 .455 TLs sold commercially numbered in the 12000 to 13000 range of the original 1 to 15375 serial range to get us to the total remaining of 13872 produced in .44 Spl and misc calibers in the 1st Model serial range TLs for the commercial market.
Total 455 TLs:
So we have 666 British contract produced military .455 TLs, and we have 837 (146 + 691) in .455 Mk II sold commercially all in the 44 # range, plus 5461 military 455 TLs in the British contract serial range for a total of 6964 .455 TLs.
Total TLs all calibers:
That puts the total regular production of all commercial and contract TLs in all calibers and both serial ranges at something approximating 13872 + 837 + 666 + 5461 at 20836, including a dozen or so 45 S&W Special (45 Frankford prototypes for the Army trials of 1906) as near as I can figure. Recognizing however that not all serial #s were actually built.
NOTE: There have been sightings and reliable reports of 2nd models with numbers that are lower than the usual 2nd Model serial range and T/Ls that are higher than the usual T/L range.
Triple Lock Target Models
If one were to presume targets were likely somewhere between 5 and 10% of total commercial production, that's 730 to 1460 target models.
Estimated total number of Triple Lock Hand Ejectors in 44 Spl Including Misc. Calibers, and 455 Mk II
The ".44 Hand Ejector 1st Model" 'Triple Lock' serial # range is generally accepted to be 1 to 15375. As usual, not every serial # was used. The great majority of these were commercial models chambered in .44 Spl with the odd .45 Colt, .44-40, etc. Also included in this range are 812 chambered in .455 Mk II, 666 of this 1st batch produced for the British and in category #1 below. Pre production TLs include about a dozen chambered in the experimental .45 S&W Spl for the Army trials of 1906, some of which were turned into club guns; club guns total 20 in the Club Gun book.
Total 44 & misc cal. TLs:
So we roughly have a 15375 .44 TL serial # range, less 666 .455 TL contract guns = something under 14709 as usual, then subtract an additional 146 .455 TLs made and sold commercially with the 1st batch of .455 TLs = 14563, and subtract the last batch of 691 .455 TLs sold commercially numbered in the 12000 to 13000 range of the original 1 to 15375 serial range to get us to the total remaining of 13872 produced in .44 Spl and misc calibers in the 1st Model serial range TLs for the commercial market.
Total 455 TLs:
So we have 666 British contract produced military .455 TLs, and we have 837 (146 + 691) in .455 Mk II sold commercially all in the 44 # range, plus 5461 military 455 TLs in the British contract serial range for a total of 6964 .455 TLs.
Total TLs all calibers:
That puts the total regular production of all commercial and contract TLs in all calibers and both serial ranges at something approximating 13872 + 837 + 666 + 5461 at 20836, including a dozen or so 45 S&W Special (45 Frankford prototypes for the Army trials of 1906) as near as I can figure. Recognizing however that not all serial #s were actually built.
NOTE: There have been sightings and reliable reports of 2nd models with numbers that are lower than the usual 2nd Model serial range and T/Ls that are higher than the usual T/L range.
Triple Lock Target Models
If one were to presume targets were likely somewhere between 5 and 10% of total commercial production, that's 730 to 1460 target models.
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olskool
Member
I think Elmer Keith blew up his fair share of them......
My only two:
With Ladysmith M frame; the only other hand ejector w/o a divot in the recoil shield to retract the ctr pin:
Factory TL target factory style Gold insert front blade:
Rear sight with super fine checkered surface:
With Ladysmith M frame; the only other hand ejector w/o a divot in the recoil shield to retract the ctr pin:
Factory TL target factory style Gold insert front blade:
Rear sight with super fine checkered surface:
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