44 HE carry up issues...reputable gunsmith recommendation sought.

[peppercorn]

I have a 1926 44HE 3rd Model that is a little loose in lockup and also has weak carry up on 4 of the six chambers.

I would really appreciate being steered in the direction a gunsmith familiar with these old HEs and one that has a turnaround of less than a year, if possible.

Any help would be very much appreciated.

 

[Hondo44]

Too easy to fix to send off and spend money on if you are the least bit handy.

When the cylinder is a few thousandths short of advancing completely to lock up, known as what you wrote; "carry up", just do the following:

With the cylinder open in a vertical position, use a flat tipped punch to very gently peen each of the 6 ratchet teeth on the rear surface of the edge contacted by the hand. One tap on each tooth will usually do it and the gun will function perfectly for another 20 years. I've fixed so many that way I can't count them.

The hand is made of harder steel than the teeth since it has six times the contacts of each tooth, and this is a typical result after many rounds of shooting. That's why I would not install a new hand, it already has the advantage.

 

[SDH]

Internet gunsmithing advise, especially when it involves a hammer, may not be advisable for the uninitiated. It is rarely that simple...
"Sure, just (gently) beat on it with a hammer, I've done it many times, that will fix it right up."
Steve Hughes

 

[bettis1]

Internet gunsmithing advise, especially when it involves a hammer, may not be advisable for the uninitiated. It is rarely that simple...
"Sure, just (gently) beat on it with a hammer, I've done it many times, that will fix it right up."
Steve Hughes

Steve's advice is pretty good...but don't restrict it to gunsmithing. It is equally applicable to marriages, raising kids, tuning up vehicles, training dogs, modifying the human body, etc.

Bob

 

[Hondo44]

Internet gunsmithing advise, especially when it involves a hammer, may not be advisable for the uninitiated. It is rarely that simple...
"Sure, just (gently) beat on it with a hammer, I've done it many times, that will fix it right up."
Steve Hughes

Steve Hughes,

I respectfully need to alert you that your post was a spectacularly rude and tactless comment that you may want to rethink. We try to keep this forum void of uncivil discourse. You are free to voice your opinions but likewise, so are all members and w/o disparaging unkind remarks as you exhibited. Especially when your opinions reveal enough lack of knowledge on the subject to know the difference between sound advice or bad advice (which I'll grant you is not uncommon on forums), but completely beside the point of your lack of respect for other members.

Suffice to say that your sarcastic exaggeration of my post or any other members' posts are not appreciated by me, or most other members and gunsmiths with more experience in different ways to accomplish competent repairs w/o always just slapping in new parts.

I also believe member peppercorn does not appreciate your assumption of and reference to him as "the uninitiated" whether true or not. And that he is sufficiently mature to make his own decisions about which suggestions may apply to him, on his own and might even appreciate your acknowledgement of that fact.

 

[delta-419]

Peening

Peening rough metal parts back into original shape with a gentle tapping motion is a tried and true gunsmithing technique. I have done it many times both with my old S&Ws and my antique Winchesters. Metal filed is lost forever. Peening is a simple fix that has brought several of my guns back into service. I am currently building my second 44HE from the stripped frame out. Taking the cylinder/yoke assembly out is a simple task and is part of my routine cleaning process. GO to the S&W Smithing section on this forum for more ideas. The cylinder notches may also need peening, I run my thumbnail across the lip of each notch to see if there are any burrs and then gently tap them down with a wide head light smithing hammer. Learning how to fix these old warhorses has brought a new dimension to my collecting.

 

[beagleye]

I have used internet gun-smithing advise with good results on more than one occasion. I straightened ejector pin on a table saw, with a hammer I might add, on advice from this forum. It worked swell. This particular batch of advice sounds simple enough. Assuming the original poster is handy, sounds like it would be worth a try. And don't forget gunsmiths come with their own set of risks.

 

[peppercorn]

Thanks for the advise, guys. I am going to further investigate the 'peening' advise.
I am fairly handy but always research heavily before moving metal in any direction. I just really hadn't thought about it in this case.

 

[SDH]

He asked for a gunsmith referral, not a hammer.

 

[ralph7]

Too easy to fix to send off and spend money on if you are the least bit handy.

When the cylinder is a few thousandths short of advancing completely to lock up, known as what you wrote; "carry up", just do the following:

With the cylinder open in a vertical position, use a flat tipped punch to very gently peen each of the 6 ratchet teeth on the rear surface of the edge contacted by the hand. One tap on each tooth will usually do it and the gun will function perfectly for another 20 years. I've fixed so many that way I can't count them.

The hand is made of harder steel than the teeth since it has six times the contacts of each tooth, and this is a typical result after many rounds of shooting. That's why I would not install a new hand, it already has the advantage.
__________________

Jim

Internet gunsmithing advise, especially when it involves a hammer, may not be advisable for the uninitiated. It is rarely that simple...
"Sure, just (gently) beat on it with a hammer, I've done it many times, that will fix it right up."
Steve Hughes

Both of you are right, this is why forums are interesting to me.

 

[Texas Star]

I don't want to get caught between any of you on this, but please remember that Steven Dodd Hughes is a nationally famous man in his field, that of making extremely fine custom rifles and shotguns. He is also an author on such matters, and a talented photographer. It is an honor to have him on this board.

He has also posted enough about his vintage S&W's that I feel sure that he knows what to do to repair one.

As a distinguished gunsmith, he probably reacted instinctively to the suggestion that anyone needing to ask about re-timing the cylinder was ill-advised to be told to do it himself. It's akin to a brain surgeon seeing someone being told on the Net how to do home surgery.

I'm sure that Hondo44 and others here can do that job competently. The OP seems more cautious, and surely Steve noted that. I don't think he meant a personal attack on Hondo so much as he was aghast at what might happen if someone untrained did that delicate job and made an error.

I hope we can all see the matter in perspective. I wouldn't
try that task, and I do know what's involved, at least in theory.

Either way, I certainly wish the OP good fortune in correcting the problem. If I understand his post, he may also have a cylinder endshake problem. (Not sure about the looseness he describes.) I know how a trained armorer solves that, but have neither the equipment or background to do it myself. (I used to think a "mandrel" was the last name of some country singer. )

Hope that we can all cool off and refer the OP to a competent gunsmith who won't take forever and charge him an arm and a leg.

But remember, Steve Hughes is not just an average guy who fiddles some with guns in his garage, and his reaction is perhaps more understandable. I do sort of see why Hondo reacted as he did, given that HE has the skills to do this task. Just not everyone else can. I think that Steve was just horrified that a fine old gun might be ruined by receiving less than proper attention.

Now, I'm getting out of the way, in case anyone starts throwing things...but I hope we're too mature for that.

 

[peppercorn]

To all the above.
It appears to me that good intention was meant in the noted posts. It seems many people come here for advise from 'You' the experts that have studied, worked on and spent years engaged with these old revolvers. I know I do.

After, once again, looking over the revolver in question I can see where peening could help the carry up issue. It does, however, have the loose lockup and endshake. So, I am back to my original inquiry.

I currently have a New Model Three with a 'reputable' gunsmith and I am sure it will be great once it is fixed. The problem is that that particular repair is now 6 Months past, 11 months and counting, the date promised for its return.

I really would like to have a name or two of experienced 'Smiths' to inquire with regarding this Handejector.

 

[RKmesa]

In answer to the original question - I use Nelson Ford (here in Phoenix, AZ) to tune any S&W that does not seem to be working right, and to "fine tune" those that work just fine. Most of the problems you describe will be fixed with his $149 treatment of any K or N frame AND it will come back to you with the smoothest double action trigger that you have ever seen. His normal turn around time is usually within 30 days. Luckily his shop is about three miles from my office and I can spend an enjoyable lunch break "talking S&W" when I drop off or pick up any of my shooters.

Nelson is highly recommended for those of us who are pretty good tinkerers, but not brave enough to try the use of a hammer and punch to peen parts back into shape. BTW - in speaking with Nelson, I believe that the approach that Jim describes (or something similar to that), along with some trigger action magic, is used by Nelson in fixing timing/lock up problems.

Here is a link to his site.

The Gunsmith, Inc.

Good Luck,

 

[beagleye]

Thanks for the advise, guys. I am going to further investigate the 'peening' advise.
I am fairly handy but always research heavily before moving metal in any direction. I just really hadn't thought about it in this case.

Sounds like a prudent course.

 

[beagleye]

In answer to the original question - I use Nelson Ford (here in Phoenix, AZ) to tune any S&W that does not seem to be working right, and to "fine tune" those that work just fine. Most of the problems you describe will be fixed with his $149 treatment of any K or N frame AND it will come back to you with the smoothest double action trigger that you have ever seen. His normal turn around time is usually within 30 days. Luckily his shop is about three miles from my office and I can spend an enjoyable lunch break "talking S&W" when I drop off or pick up any of my shooters.

Nelson is highly recommended for those of us who are pretty good tinkerers, but not brave enough to try the use of a hammer and punch to peen parts back into shape. BTW - in speaking with Nelson, I believe that the approach that Jim describes (or something similar to that), along with some trigger action magic, is used by Nelson in fixing timing/lock up problems.

Here is a link to his site.

The Gunsmith, Inc.

Good Luck,

Wow!! what a great looking price list. I will looking forward to contacting and possible using this fellow for upcoming issues.

 

[Hondo44]

Richard,

What a great reference and how nice to be so close!

If it's the same Ford, I've heard many times that his restorations are excellent; of the highest caliber and very fairly priced as well.

 

[ralph7]

Richard,

What a great reference and how nice to be so close!

If it's the same Ford, I've heard many times that his restorations are excellent; of the highest caliber and very fairly priced as well.

You might be thinking of these guys.
Supposed to be very high quality work.

Fords Custom Gun Refinishing in Crystal River, Florida

 

[RKmesa]

Richard,

What a great reference and how nice to be so close!

If it's the same Ford, I've heard many times that his restorations are excellent; of the highest caliber and very fairly priced as well.

Jim:

As noted, it is a different Ford - only tunings and repairs - no bluing or restorations. Just great functioning Smiths.

 

[SDH]

Now there's some good advise.

 

[Hondo44]

Jim:

As noted, it is a different Ford - only tunings and repairs - no bluing or restorations. Just great functioning Smiths.

Sounds like your local Ford's is just as good, at what he does! We don't have anyone like that around here.