.44 magnum primer pressure question

[SnowMan95]

Not a reloading question per se, as these are not reloads. But I figured this would be the best place to ask it since it has to do with pressure signs.

Was shooting some real hot buffalo bore (305 grain at 1325 fps) loads earlier today in my model 29. Figured it'd be a good bear load and did some research before buying it. The guy at buffalo bore as well as a gunsmith I talked to both said it should be safe to fire in my gun, provided I only did so sparingly to avoid accelerating wear too much.

Well, I just fired them for the first time at the range today. Not sure if its just my imagination, but I thought some of these primers looked a little flat, and I'm concerned these loads may be pushing it a little too far in terms of pressure.

Not too worried, as I have not had issues with primers blowing out, cracked cases, or anything else of that nature. But I'd rather not get to that point later on.

So my question is as follows. Do these primers look normal for a full power load? Or do you see indicators of dangerous pressure levels.

For reference, I've attached not only images of the spent cases, but also spent cases compared to unfired ones. In addition, I attached a picture of the buffalo bore (silver primer) next to a relatively mild load (gold primer) that I know beyond even the slightest doubt to be a safe pressure.

Sorry if this is a stupid question or I seem paranoid. I'm new to revolvers, and would rather ease my way into these super hot loads than risk causing a safety issue or damaging my gun. And no, I don't plan to get any hotter than this! For that I'd buy a redhawk! Just want to make to make sure these are truly "full house" loads and not "bomb in the house" accidents waiting to happen before continuing to use them.

 

[ajgunner]

Yes they look to be smashed flat. I have shot several boxes of the Buffalo Bore 340gr in my Redhawks and they come out looking about the same. You would have to have excess money to burn to be able to feed a steady diet of these to any revolver. I have fired enough of them to know they are really not fun to shoot. I just figure if I am going to pack them in a revolver, I better know what to expect when I pull the trigger. I load all my own 44 and have for years. Even at top end book loads the only time I have seen primers smashed flat like the Buffalo Bore is with a full book maximum load of H110.

 

[505Gibbs]

They might be a bit warm but there appears to be no cratering of the primer.
I'd say they are fine - IMO.

 

[tominboise]

Do they eject ok? Primers look hot but can't really judge by that in my experience.

 

[WR Moore]

They're flatter than I like to see and I do believe that I see the faint beginnings of cratering on a couple in that image of 6 spent cases. Might just be the image.

You don't indicate what type of bears you're worrying about. Frankly, your concern should be a load with good penetration that you can shoot a lot of so you can place your rounds under stress. If you feel you just have to have elephant stomper loads, get a Ruger Super Blackhawk with the Bisley grip.

The way most ammo companies load ammo is to a velocity spec within the SAAMI pressure limits. Then there are the other guys...........

 

[4barrel]

If those came from the same gun it looks a little out of time. Some strikes are in the middle and others not. I have a 29-2 and shot some factory mag loads but have a Ruger SRH for the warm loads

 

[Just another 22 shooter]

If the cases eject ok, I wouldn't wory about the limited use you say you plan for the gun/load. In fact the pics look a lot like I remember any factory full house loads looking in the late 70s when I first owned a 29. I load my 44 mag DOWN considerably now, as it is pretty much a plinking pistol and never has sd duty.

 

[Abflyboy]

Those look just like the primers in my 240 gr XTP over full charge of H110 loads. Been flattening primers like that for many years.

As previously mentioned, if the cases extract somewhat smoothly and pressure signs do NOT go beyond what you are seeing, you should be fine.

FWIW, my $0.02, YMMV

 

[Peak53]

Snowman - First, welcome to the forum and a good first post with good pics. While not too experienced with hotter 44 mag loads, they do look a bit flat, but coming from BB, they should be in spec. You didn't mention what gun these have been shot in. If that is an older SW 29, I would proceed with care. If a Ruger, you are probably OK.

 

[Abbynormal]

Too hot in my opinion. 30 years ago, I used to load 26 grs of W296 with a 240 gr JHP and 25 grs of W296 with a 240 gr SWC and got that and sometimes cratering. Never blew up my M29-2, but had to rebuild the inside parts.

Tried using 2400 and had less pressure, similar velocities and better grouping. Went that direction and don't have to rebuild interior S&W parts on a regular basis.

 

[fredj338]

Yes the prmers are a bit flat but that isnt always an indicator. If they are sticky on extraction plus flat primers, yeah hot loads.
I have shot 1000s of full power 44mag over 4 decades. Imo, there was never really a need for a 300gr solid running that hard, even for big bears. Slow it down to 1250fps, easier on the shooter & still shoot thru yogi, 100ft# ME means little.
I have little use for any factory 44mags. Waaay to easy to make your own, mild to wild. I dont feed my various m29-1 full power loads often, but not much in NA stops a 250gr lswc @ just 1300fps. My hunting load is a 270gr Cup point @ a liesure 1250fps. It wont stop in any deer, nor hog broadside. I don't need more & the coated lead bullet is easier on the gun.

 

[rays44]

To answer your question, the primers look "normal" for a load like that.
On another note, a 300gr hard cast bullet at 1000fps will likely shoot through any black bear. For jacketed bullets, the Hornady XTP or Nosler Partition are good choices.
There is simply no need to go that hot. The tech at BB was correct. Save them for hunting if you must but not a steady diet in the 29.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I'll agree that they look fairly normal for a full magnum load too, but as mentioned, that's only part of the story.

The more important question, which M29 revision are you shooting them in?

If it's a pre-endurance model show it a little love & shoot something more moderate or you'll be dealing with excessive endshake & play.

.

 

[gwpercle]

Case extraction is a better sign of high pressure .
If all six fired cases could be extracted without the need four a plastic mallet or pounding on the extractor ...you're not having any high pressure problems .
Another thing to look for is expanded primer pockets . When new primers fall out the pocket ...those loads are too hot .
The look of fired primers is not always a reliable guide because primer cups vary in thickness and hardness from maker to maker .

Best to look at extraction , pocket expansion and primer appearance all together .

Magnum loads are going to appear flattened and in some cases the firing pin indentation may appear cratered ...but that.s not uncommon.
Gary

 

[stansdds]

First, welcome to the S&W Forums.


Those primers suggest to me that the ammo is at maximum safe pressure, but not over the SAAMI safe specifications. The bigger issue in my mind is what version of the Model 29 are you using? If it is a 29-5 or later, then it is ok. 44 Magnum full power loads with bullets weighing over 250 grains have a reputation for beating the earlier versions of the Model 29 to death.



For protection against black bears, a full power 240 grain hard cast lead semi-wadcutter would be a good choice. The 300 grain loads are more appropriate for grizzly bears.

 

[elpac3]

Aside from the look of primers, the topic of heavy bullets and bear defense comes up frequently. Bears are a large animal with a large volume circulatory system who move very quickly.

For a charging bear the only sure stopping shot is a head shot (brain) to disrupt the brain and central nervous system. Any other shot (chest / neck) will rely on depleting blood volume to point that the animal is no longer able to function.

With a charging bear, relying on a chest shot/frontal shot - that is too late and we will be reading about another bear casualty.

Do I carry my .44 in the field - yes I do. I carry hard cast lead at 1100 FPS and hope I can make enough noise that I do not have a bear encounter. The anticipation / expectation is IF I have to shoot it is going to up really close and I am going to get hurt.

 

[ajgunner]

Now if your brass starts to come out of the cylinder looking like these, you had better give BB a call.

Before everyone starts jumping up and down, I posted this as an example. I never was able to figure out what the problem was, but most likely is was a brass issue---combination of old brass and hot loads or possibly even a bad batch of brass. These were all the same head stamp so I always leaned towards bad batch of brass. I still have 70+ pieces of it in similar condition. Lots of guy figured it was my polish being something containing ammonia, but the only polish I ever used was Dillon's. So it will remain a mystery.

 

[SLT223]

Yes that looks normal. It looks like every factory full power load and my reloads topped up with slow powder and a 240gr bullet.

 

[jjfitch]

This: "Buffalo Bore as well as a gunsmith I talked to both said it should be safe to fire in my gun, provided I only did so sparingly to avoid accelerating wear too much."

Plus: Lots of meaningful advice in the above post! Especially regarding shot placement.

When carrying a pistol for protection in grizzly country be sure to have your affairs in order! And have a companion that you can out run!

Smiles,

 

[ggibson511960]

Primer Cups Flowing into Firing Pin Hole

Yikes, when you see primer cup metal flowing into the firing pin hole around the firing pin, it's time to change something. The headspace between cylinder and recoil plate will buy a little clearance to keep the gun running, but too much primer flow and the gun is tied up. I regard primer flattening or cratering as a second high pressure level alarm. I can't quote the exact article, but my recollection is that relying on primer signs is a fuzzy indirect sign of pressure. There are too many variables like primer cup metal hardness, primer pocket fit, pressure time history, headspace. BB gave you good advice, but even better advice would be to make a good hit on the bear with a standard full power load that doesn't move you out from under your hat.