I just bought a 442-1 revolver. It uses moon clips. Three were supplied with the gun. It will also use speed loaders or single cartridges. I noticed that the rounds are loose in the moon clips. It's hard to load them into the cylinder because of the looseness. I called S+W and asked what thickness the ones supplied with the revolver. Their answer was they didn't know. They said I should measure the ones supplied with the gun. Does any one know an answer. I'm using Winchester 38 special +P 125 grain Jacketed hollow points bought from Walmart. Most of the gun shops around here don't even know what moon clips are much less anything about them
442-1 Moonclip size
- Thread starter tomkelley
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Howdy tomkelley, and welcome to the forum.
I agree with OKFC05's source, but not necessarily his idea that you'll get all your answers.
TK supplies S&W with the moonclips you got with your 442 (likely the same ones I got with my 640 Pro). I've got scads of different factory .38 and .357 ammo, and some of the ones that are supposed to work in my moonclips don't fit at all, while others that aren't supposed to work fit like a dream.
I simply went through the trial and error process till I found the ammo that fits easily.
Cheers,
Bob
I agree with OKFC05's source, but not necessarily his idea that you'll get all your answers.
TK supplies S&W with the moonclips you got with your 442 (likely the same ones I got with my 640 Pro). I've got scads of different factory .38 and .357 ammo, and some of the ones that are supposed to work in my moonclips don't fit at all, while others that aren't supposed to work fit like a dream.
I simply went through the trial and error process till I found the ammo that fits easily.
Cheers,
Bob
The moon clips supplied with the 442-1 are marked "TK" and are .025".
It's been awhile since I bought mine, but I went to TK's web site and ordered the ones that are the right thickness for the ammo that I carry for SD, which is Speer. They list the correct clips for your gun and then you pick the ones for your ammo. I did, just as Bob, in post #3 above said, try some different types, and some fit and some didn't, but the Speer fit just fine. Check out their web site. Also, if you don't have them, there are mooning and de mooning tools that make it really easy to do.
Best Regards, Les
Best Regards, Les
Pizza Bob
Member
If the moon clips are the proper ones for the gun, I have never seen a clip that holds the ammo so rigidly that it won't chamber. Usually it is difficult to find a clip that minimizes cartridge "wiggle". When you are dealing with long cartridges (.38 Spl / .357 Mag) the more rigidly the clip holds the ammo, the easier and faster the reload. The only caliber that I have found where rounds with some wiggle in them are desirable is .45 ACP - very short and nose heavy, loading into six big holes. .40 S&W is OK too, but any sub-.40 caliber you want them held as rigidly as possible.
I find it curious that the OP complains of cartridge wiggle using the .025" clips that came with the gun. TK recommends his .020" clips for Winchester brass. Usually the thicker you go, the more rigid the hold, so if he finds too much wiggle with the OE clips, I can only imagine it will be worse with the thinner clips. That is why I'm with two-bit cowboy and his trial & error method of finding what works.
Most competition shooters using 8-shot 627's are using shorter ammunition for less wiggle and faster reloads - usually .38 Short or Long Colt. Not really an option for SD, but points out the importance of clips that hold rigidly.
Adios,
Pizza Bob
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There is no specification for how wide that groove is on the cartridge case. In fact there are even cases with no groove.
This is why so many different thicknesses exist, so you can better match the brand of brass you are using with the clip you are using if you want.
The clips that came with my first S&W, back in 1996, were .018" and S&W got $34.95 for a three pack.
There were no aftermarket manufacturers in those days.
I have been using .022" for 15+ years now.
Be patient, it takes time to get used to them.
This is why so many different thicknesses exist, so you can better match the brand of brass you are using with the clip you are using if you want.
The clips that came with my first S&W, back in 1996, were .018" and S&W got $34.95 for a three pack.
There were no aftermarket manufacturers in those days.
I have been using .022" for 15+ years now.
Be patient, it takes time to get used to them.
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I love the concept of moon clips and sometimes think I'd like to get a moonclip capable revolver just to try it out and work with it despite all of the suggestions to avoid them I've had from numerous respected defense instructors. When I read threads like this, I must admit that they completely talk me out of even considering getting one.
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Thee are many folks that hate moon clips just like there are many folks that love them, not to mention those that fall in-between the extremes.
It is such a shame that the instructors that are advising you do not see the tremendous advantage that a J-frame sized, moon clip enabled, deep cover, personal defense revolver presents.
In a deep cover, personal defense role, moon clips do not shine for their ability to load a firearm quickly, they shine in their ability to eject all spent brass.
Small revolvers like the 2" barreled, model 442, have short ejector rods that do not get the brass clear of the cylinder at the end of the stroke. A positive and distinct ejection stroke must be used, preferable with the muzzle pointed up to try and make sure all casings leave the firearm and nothing gets left behind to catch under the extractor star or be plucked out one at a time by hand.
A moon clips eliminates the possibility of leaving cartridge casings in the cylinder since all cartridge casings are linked together and additional weight is added to the group. Far less effort is used to eject the spent shells.
For reloading the firearm a speed strip is optimal in the deep cover role since it sits flat in the pocket.
Remember for most that carry concealed in the US, this is not a Law Enforcement situation. They are not knowingly and willfully walking into a armed confrontation. If they were knowingly and willfully walking into a armed confrontation they would be better armed than just a Smith and Wesson J-frame.
As a private citizen you do not have a duty to stay in the fight until all citizens and property have been returned to safety and the perpetrators have been rendered ineffective.
In a personal defense role you are carrying a firearm to get your butt out of a situation that you never expected to run into.
Simply having a firearm with you is much more important than having lots of reloads with you
Thee are many folks that hate moon clips just like there are many folks that love them, not to mention those that fall in-between the extremes.
It is such a shame that the instructors that are advising you do not see the tremendous advantage that a J-frame sized, moon clip enabled, deep cover, personal defense revolver presents.
In a deep cover, personal defense role, moon clips do not shine for their ability to load a firearm quickly, they shine in their ability to eject all spent brass.
Small revolvers like the 2" barreled, model 442, have short ejector rods that do not get the brass clear of the cylinder at the end of the stroke. A positive and distinct ejection stroke must be used, preferable with the muzzle pointed up to try and make sure all casings leave the firearm and nothing gets left behind to catch under the extractor star or be plucked out one at a time by hand.
A moon clips eliminates the possibility of leaving cartridge casings in the cylinder since all cartridge casings are linked together and additional weight is added to the group. Far less effort is used to eject the spent shells.
For reloading the firearm a speed strip is optimal in the deep cover role since it sits flat in the pocket.
Remember for most that carry concealed in the US, this is not a Law Enforcement situation. They are not knowingly and willfully walking into a armed confrontation. If they were knowingly and willfully walking into a armed confrontation they would be better armed than just a Smith and Wesson J-frame.
As a private citizen you do not have a duty to stay in the fight until all citizens and property have been returned to safety and the perpetrators have been rendered ineffective.
In a personal defense role you are carrying a firearm to get your butt out of a situation that you never expected to run into.
Simply having a firearm with you is much more important than having lots of reloads with you
I wholeheartedly agree that reloading is not a likely possibility in a civilian defense encounter. I say it often and anyone who has read my posts here or on other forums know that I also have little interest in or advocate for proactively responding to or intervening in situations unnecessarily. I train(and teach)primarily for what I have concluded are the most likely civilian defense scenarios which are reactive ECQ defense scenarios and choose an enclosed hammer revolver for it's advantages in these scenarios. I think it is the most effective weapon within this context. My passing interest in moonclip revolvers is in the 9mm variations just to have commonality with my autoloaders.
If reloading is not a likely proposition in a defense encounter, then ejection shouldn't really be much of a concern either. Being able to do a partial reload from a speedstrip would likely be just as useful and Moonclips eliminate that ability. I've also seen numerous complaints from reputable sources about Moonclips over the years regarding ignition problems, extraction issues in addition to bent clips binding up the cylinder, difficulties loading/unloading and even the issues on this thread that make me have to to agree with those instructors who say they aren't worth the hassle and more likely to cause problems than be of any advantage. More power to the guys who like and trust them.
Got two of the 642 talos that are cut for moonclips with the intention of using them for the in-gun load to ensure extraction of all rounds during a reload.
I bought some extra clips sized correctly for Speer ammo and a j frame mooncliptool. Worked for a few loadings and then they just stopped accepting rounds without bending. Cannot see any bends or misalignment in the clips so I suspect that the case dimensions around the rim changed with the new lot of ammo? Anyway, that wasted money on clips and a tool scratched my itch for moonclips on a 38.
All the empties drop free anyway with a sharp smack of the reloading hand. Reloads are with Comp1s or speedstrips.
I bought some extra clips sized correctly for Speer ammo and a j frame mooncliptool. Worked for a few loadings and then they just stopped accepting rounds without bending. Cannot see any bends or misalignment in the clips so I suspect that the case dimensions around the rim changed with the new lot of ammo? Anyway, that wasted money on clips and a tool scratched my itch for moonclips on a 38.
All the empties drop free anyway with a sharp smack of the reloading hand. Reloads are with Comp1s or speedstrips.
I'm a bit baffled that the posts on this thread have talked you out of a moonclip capable revolver.
When I first tried the clips in my 640 Pro I wondered why anyone would use these clumsy, cumbersome gadgets. Perhaps your "numerous respected defense instructors" had a similar experience after only one or two tries and never made themselves learn.
Everyone's heard the story about the boy who bought ice skates. He tried and fell, over and over, till a guy walked up to him and said, "Why don't you quit before you get hurt." The boy said, "I didn't buy these skates to learn how to quit."
I've practiced, and practiced, and practiced unloading and reloading my 640 with the clips. I'm so fast at the reload now that I can't imagine not using them. I like them so much that I'm thinking of having TK do my M&P 340.
It's more to do with attitude than aptitude.
Take care,
Bob
Not this thread primarily, but it does in fact help reinforce my opinion. I've never truly seriously considered getting one. The respected instructors I referenced include Massad Ayoob, Grant Cunningham and Michael de Bethencourt among others. I have no doubt these men have given the issue a lot of thought, tested it thoroughly and been witness to the problems they mentioned in their classes over the decades. I would default to their judgement over that of anonymous forum posters given the choice and lacking personal experience. Everyone should come to their own conclusions, but what they said makes sense. My personal experience with them is pretty limited, but just by handling a moonclip revolver and the clips themselves, I can see why there could be issues. Plus I have seen numerous forum posts on Moonclips and these same problems are encountered regularly. I'm glad they work for you.
Pizza Bob
Member
That certainly is a gaggle of respected instructors, but I just have to wonder if their advice is based on them witnessing many students attempting to use moon clips in the courses they give, rather than their own capabilities.
Sub-.40 caliber moon clip guns are a beast unto themselves and require the operator to find clips and ammo that works in their gun and then practice, practice, practice! I think many people think moon clips are a short-cut to fast reloads, but don't take into account the research and practice it takes to use them proficiently - with the results viewed by the likes of your referenced instructors. If that's the case, I wouldn't recommend them either.
Adios,
Pizza Bob
Sub-.40 caliber moon clip guns are a beast unto themselves and require the operator to find clips and ammo that works in their gun and then practice, practice, practice! I think many people think moon clips are a short-cut to fast reloads, but don't take into account the research and practice it takes to use them proficiently - with the results viewed by the likes of your referenced instructors. If that's the case, I wouldn't recommend them either.
Adios,
Pizza Bob
I bought on the 442 revolver because my 72 year old fingers have problems with the slide on an autoloader. I put a grip laser on it. I have a S+W 39 that I can work the slide since it has a safety that I can use my thumb to push the slide. If some company made a laser to fit either my 39 or my Python I would carry one of them. The 442 fits in my front pocket so I don't need any fancy holster. I'm going to try several combinations of ammo and moonclips. Thank you for all the suggestions.
I think the OP -- and others who haven't done a lot of practicing with moon clips -- may have the faulty impression that thickness of the moon clip is dictated by the type of revolver.
In the case of the J frame 640 Pro or 442 Pro, either the .020 or .025 moon clips will work. The key variable in which you should use is the ammo, not the revolver type. As noted earlier, different ammo manufacturers have different size grooves, and that is what matters. There are some types of ammo that may not work with either .020 or .025. I've had good luck with Speer Gold Dot, Hornady XTP, Winchester Train and Defense, Remington Golden Saber, and ammo from companies that use Starline Brass.
Another suggestion: don't use any ammo with a bullet that has exposed lead (either a fully lead bullet or a bullet with an open tip with an exposed lead core). The soft lead can snag on the opening to the cylinder's charge hole. A JHP round works better. The Hornady Critical Defense FTX bullet, with its more conical shape, might be ideal.
I also saw in this thread the idea that the moonclip should hold the rounds so that they don't wobble. They should wobble - but only just enough. The right amount of wobble is what lets the rounds enter the cylinder and go all the way in. The geometry changes a little bit as they go in, and they need that ability to move around a tad. (Usually when five moon clipped rounds won't go in all the way, the moonclip is too thick for the groove of that particular ammo).
The best advice I can give for anyone using moonclips is to buy both of the typically available thicknesses (.020 and .025) and see which works with your chosen ammo.
It is always a good idea to test load each filled moon clip with the revolver for which it is intended to make sure that loading combination will work. By the way, my 442 Pro that was factory moon clipped by S&W, and my 640 that I had TK Custom moon clip, have identical charge hole distances and use the same moon clip thickness/.38 Special round selections interchangeably.
Moon clips allow me to carry a second five rounds in a small package (I keep the clipped bullets in a cut down 1 oz Nalgene bottle with no top) in case I need five more. Is that likely? Well, less likely than the need for the first five... but still possible. And I can get the original five out quickly without getting any under the ejector star (which is otherwise more likely in a short barrel J frame where the ejector rod is not full length). And get the next five in pretty quickly. Faster than with a speed loader or a speed strip. When might I need to do that? I try to think through scenarios, and the one I have in mind is a pack of feral dogs... big feral dogs... six big feral dogs...
But, you have to practice using the system (you, the revolver, and the moon clips) to build up your speed, reliability, and confidence.
Final comment: it makes sense to set up two moonclips with snap caps so you can practice the full sequence of shoot, unload, reload, and shoot with some assurances of safety... always aiming at a safe bullet stop even though you are "only" using snap caps... never at the TV or the family cat.
In the case of the J frame 640 Pro or 442 Pro, either the .020 or .025 moon clips will work. The key variable in which you should use is the ammo, not the revolver type. As noted earlier, different ammo manufacturers have different size grooves, and that is what matters. There are some types of ammo that may not work with either .020 or .025. I've had good luck with Speer Gold Dot, Hornady XTP, Winchester Train and Defense, Remington Golden Saber, and ammo from companies that use Starline Brass.
Another suggestion: don't use any ammo with a bullet that has exposed lead (either a fully lead bullet or a bullet with an open tip with an exposed lead core). The soft lead can snag on the opening to the cylinder's charge hole. A JHP round works better. The Hornady Critical Defense FTX bullet, with its more conical shape, might be ideal.
I also saw in this thread the idea that the moonclip should hold the rounds so that they don't wobble. They should wobble - but only just enough. The right amount of wobble is what lets the rounds enter the cylinder and go all the way in. The geometry changes a little bit as they go in, and they need that ability to move around a tad. (Usually when five moon clipped rounds won't go in all the way, the moonclip is too thick for the groove of that particular ammo).
The best advice I can give for anyone using moonclips is to buy both of the typically available thicknesses (.020 and .025) and see which works with your chosen ammo.
It is always a good idea to test load each filled moon clip with the revolver for which it is intended to make sure that loading combination will work. By the way, my 442 Pro that was factory moon clipped by S&W, and my 640 that I had TK Custom moon clip, have identical charge hole distances and use the same moon clip thickness/.38 Special round selections interchangeably.
Moon clips allow me to carry a second five rounds in a small package (I keep the clipped bullets in a cut down 1 oz Nalgene bottle with no top) in case I need five more. Is that likely? Well, less likely than the need for the first five... but still possible. And I can get the original five out quickly without getting any under the ejector star (which is otherwise more likely in a short barrel J frame where the ejector rod is not full length). And get the next five in pretty quickly. Faster than with a speed loader or a speed strip. When might I need to do that? I try to think through scenarios, and the one I have in mind is a pack of feral dogs... big feral dogs... six big feral dogs...
But, you have to practice using the system (you, the revolver, and the moon clips) to build up your speed, reliability, and confidence.
Final comment: it makes sense to set up two moonclips with snap caps so you can practice the full sequence of shoot, unload, reload, and shoot with some assurances of safety... always aiming at a safe bullet stop even though you are "only" using snap caps... never at the TV or the family cat.
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Here we call those wolves, but I digress....
According to TK's site the OEM clips that came with my 640 Pro are their .025 size. TK says they're not made for Winchester or Speer Gold Dot. Both of those brands fit in mine OEM (640 Pro) clips. TK says Remington will fit; my Golden Sabre magnums don't.
The round I do best with in my 640 Pro is Barnes 140gr lead free .357. They go in and come out of the OEM clips easier than any other ammo I've tried (four different .38s and five .357s) so I'm happy with what I've got.
My snap caps do fit easily, too, and I keep one clip filled with them just as you suggested.
Practice, practice, practice. I'm a firm believer in the old saw, "You must do a thing ten thousand times to be good at it." I'm getting there.
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I completely agree with your last sentence. Longer cartridges and moonclips are not a happy marriage. Anytime you are required to use a certain ammo or brass thickness to make something work correctly, it eliminates that product from my equation. Now, that said, they do make a great SD first load as they will insure complete ejection of all your rounds which is really great unless you were properly taught to top off your snubby cylinder at the earilest opportunity. Think speedstrips or a Glock 26 if you are worried about needing more ammo in a hurry.
My 2¢
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