A friend of mine gave me 400 rounds of .45 SWC, which ran fine in his Kimber. I know the overall length of these bullets are dead on. I tried shooting them in my H&K USP 45 and after the third round, it locked my slide out of register and I mean LOCKED. I cleared the round and it had a nick in the lead tip. I thought it was a fluke and tried to chamber another round -- same thing happened. Any ideas what's causing this problem.
.45 semi wadcutter locking up the slide
- Thread starter FatDogEarl
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Where was the nick in the tip?
Top of bullet,
Bottom etc etc?
A picture might help.
Handloads?
COAL might be okay, what about the other dimensions, and burrs?
Magazine lips that are too wide, might cause the round to go up, and hit the chamber's leading edge.
That was a Beretta 21A problem.
Top of bullet,
Bottom etc etc?
A picture might help.
Handloads?
COAL might be okay, what about the other dimensions, and burrs?
Magazine lips that are too wide, might cause the round to go up, and hit the chamber's leading edge.
That was a Beretta 21A problem.
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Could be several things. Overall length of the "bullets" doesn't mean much but overall length of the cartridges does and that may be slightly different for different guns and cause feeding and chambering problems. Cartridges could be out of spec., chambers of the H&K and Kimber may be slightly different, etc. If they locked up in your H&K, sounds like the cartridge OAL may be too long for your gun or the cartridge diameter is too large or both. Could be other things but more information is necessary like bullet weight, diameter, plated, painted, coated, etc. I'll assume you're talking about cast handloads. A nick in the lead tip could be the result of very soft lead that prevents proper feeding, but that's unlikely based on your comments.
I use the same cast bullet loads in my H&K USP 45 that I use in other .45s and they work fine, but everything is within spec. and I've never experienced a malfunction.
venomballistics
Member
Lee factory crimp die.
The HK usp was the first 45 I ever loaded for, and it taught me a lesson in understanding the loading process.
You cannot seat to proper depth and crimp in the same operation for this gun.
You have to do it in separate steps or they will fight.
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There are exceptions to everything and in some rare instances a Lee factory crimp die may be needed, but generally if you're doing everything right, a taper crimp die is best. Crimp just enough (and no more) to prevent bullet movement under recoil and chambering.
I once had a particular brand of cast lead semi wadcutter than worked fine at a particular cartridge oal.
Switched to a different brand and loaded to the same oal. Unfortunately, these had a shorter "nose" that resulted in the full body diameter to protrude more from the cartridge case.
Prevented the cartridge from seating in most of my 45 pistols. Often jammed to the point of being difficult to open the slide to clear.
One 45 appeared to have a larger diameter or worn throat and allowed me to use that batch up with trying to reseat the bullets.
Adjusted the oal on the next batch and worked fine in all guns.
Switched to a different brand and loaded to the same oal. Unfortunately, these had a shorter "nose" that resulted in the full body diameter to protrude more from the cartridge case.
Prevented the cartridge from seating in most of my 45 pistols. Often jammed to the point of being difficult to open the slide to clear.
One 45 appeared to have a larger diameter or worn throat and allowed me to use that batch up with trying to reseat the bullets.
Adjusted the oal on the next batch and worked fine in all guns.
OP
Wow! That's a ton of info and much to consider. To answer a few questions posed: 1. The overall length is 1.267. 2. Yes, cast lead bullets from Laser-Cast 200 grain, .452 diameter.. 3. Nick is on the tip of the lead.
It appears that the OAL may be too long. Additionally, pistol locked out of register and I could not rack it open or close. I forced it closed and then it would not rack open. I fired the round and it ejected normally.
It appears that the OAL may be too long. Additionally, pistol locked out of register and I could not rack it open or close. I forced it closed and then it would not rack open. I fired the round and it ejected normally.
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Try seating that bullet to 1.24". It will work. Give the loaded rounds you have back to your friend.
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USSR
Member
I teach my students to seat and crimp in separate steps for all semi-auto cartridges. Trying to push a bullet down in the case while squeezing the bullet with a taper crimp can lead to chambering problems.
Don
bigggbbruce
Member
Exactly, it will cause lead to build up right at the case mouth, since autos chamber on the case mouth. Any build up here increases heads space. No go.
I've had/have the same issue with a Glock 34 and a Colt Commander 45. Different calibers but same problem. Both will lock up with a length that feeds fine in dozens of other guns. Seat a few thousandths deeper and they will run like crap through a goose. I've learned loading for over 40 years that all guns are different. Now if it's a new load, I try it in one of those first. If they will feed, every gun will work. I completely ignore what the books say about OAL. I just load what works
venomballistics
Member
The Lee FCD is a taper crimp with a sizing function. Set the body like a sizing die, set the plug to the required crimp.
Seating to depth is accomplished in a previous step.
The same principals may be met in a batch process, using the seat/crimp die adjusted to accomplish only one function at a time.
The USP I loaded for had a rather tight chamber.
By the time you had enough crimp, you had wild COL's, deformed noses and bulged cases.
I've encountered other guns that created the same situation with other cartridges, but none so pronounced as that USP.
Since I load most of my pistol cartridges with a progressive press, the Lee FCD is a cheap and simple way to meet process requirements.
Shooting other people's reloaded ammo in your guns can be real sketchy. The bullet style, overall length, and powder charge that works well and is safe in my pistol might be unreliable or very dangerous in someone else's pistol.
That being said, 1.267" OAL for a 200 grain cast LSWC in 45 ACP is too long. 1.235" to 1.245" is the typical OAL for this bullet. Seating the bullets deeper into the case will raise operating pressure, so if these loads are already at or near maximum safe pressure, I would not advise doing so.
That being said, 1.267" OAL for a 200 grain cast LSWC in 45 ACP is too long. 1.235" to 1.245" is the typical OAL for this bullet. Seating the bullets deeper into the case will raise operating pressure, so if these loads are already at or near maximum safe pressure, I would not advise doing so.
How much of the front driving band is sticking out of the cartridge case mouth? I have seen this happen several times. barrels with a long lead can be a problem if the bullet engages the taper before full battery is achieved. Those shooting "blue" bullets in Glocks "run and gun" where a bunch of rounds are fired rapidly. The chamber heats up enough to melt the blue paint, when the barrel cools, the bullet is glued into the barrel lead thus locking up the action. Seating the bullets in the case .010 deeper usually fixes the issue.
Make sure a small (1/32) portion of the bullet extends beyond the end of the case. Otherwise the case edge will catch and therein could be your problem. Round on the left made my gun a jamamatic. Round on the right made all the difference. Runs perfectly every time.
I have a USP in 40 S&W. It does not like SWCs. I played with thw OAL and got them to work, but once in a while they would fail to chamber all the way, but not lock anything up. I have not bought any more of them.
venomballistics
Member
This one doesn't happen too often on my bench. but it comes up every so often processing range brass.
high pressure can expand a case head, and there's not a lot one can do about it. These cases are best discarded. and yeah ... they'll cause some drama when they wedge themselves in out of battery and won't let you clear it.
At least these usually show a ring from the sizing die near the case head. once you know what to look for, it's fairly easy to cull them
Motown_Ron
Member
NEVER a good idea to force close an action on a round that won't chamber correctly; no matter the gun - this principle holds true for handguns, rifles, shotguns. As you can see, there are A BUNCH of reasons that can cause misfeeds and you have to methodically troubleshoot, just as all these fine people with their suggestions have discovered. All of us build on the knowledge of others and on our own mistakes. The key is to visit the range as often as possible because that's what gets you back to your reloading bench! Good luck, but above all, pay attention to the details!
Same thing with G17 but in 9mm the problem was the shape of the bullet.
I was not able to operate the slide all back because the brass was hitting the bullet in the magazine.
OP
You are so right, Motown-Ron. It's hard to describe the contortions I went through to ensure I didn't shoot myself or send a round over the berm when I was forcing the slide closed. In response to you Richard93, I dropped the magazine before trying to rack the slide and it wouldn't budge. I have 390 rounds of this ammo. I'm going to mike a large sample to see if there are any variations in dimensions. Since I could not rack the slide when the jammed round was chambered, I suspect the base of the round was "fat."
Roger that. I built a 1911 for a guy that quickly brought it back to me claiming it wouldn't feed. He was loading a 230 grain truncated cone bullet to the same overall length of a 230 grain ball FMJ. The shoulder of that bullet was preventing proper feeding. The OAL of every bullet configuration, regardless of it being the same weight, may not work.
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It's most likely the other end rather than the base that's causing problems.
A little late to the party but SWC are finicky in seating depth. I can't tell from your picture but a good rule of thumb is the bullet body should be just a "thumbnail" out of the case. Just tiny fraction can make a difference.
If you can post a another picture showing this that would help. Just do not go by someones arbitrary OAL.
If the are to long, try seating a few a little more.
It is also not as good idea to shoot some else's reloads.
If you can post a another picture showing this that would help. Just do not go by someones arbitrary OAL.
If the are to long, try seating a few a little more.
It is also not as good idea to shoot some else's reloads.
OP
Thanks, Rule3, I normally do not shoot other people's reloads but this was the exception to that rule. It was my shooting partner's reloads and I had seen him shoot 100s of them from his Kimber. Additionally, he was a meticulous reloader. He and I often swapped our .38 and 9mm loads.
Jim Watson
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Yup, needs to be shorter. Lots of numbers but the final say is the Plunk Test. A loaded round should drop freely all the way into the chamber of the barrel clean and out of the gun. If it doesn't maybe the SWC shoulder is hitting the lands or you are oversize on diameter.
Of course it then has to fit the magazine and feed from magazine to chamber.
I was not able to load SWCs for a Sig P220 because of this. I just quit trying SWCs and went to RN or ogival JHP for all guns.
Of course it then has to fit the magazine and feed from magazine to chamber.
I was not able to load SWCs for a Sig P220 because of this. I just quit trying SWCs and went to RN or ogival JHP for all guns.
OP
That's what so weird, Jim, They pass the Plunk Test. However, I'm gonna measure all of them and plunk test each one. I hope I find some that fail. It breaks my heart to **** can 395 rounds of 45. I could take them apart but I couldn't use the powder because I'm not sure what it is :-(
The "plunk" test only checks the round's ability to fit the chamber, it may have no meaning when it comes to successfully making the journey from the magazine into the chamber.
If memory serves, which gets questionable as i age out, one of the # 68 design purposes was to replicate the contact points of a 230 rn to help ensure reliable feeding seated at a certain col in 5 in 1911's. Gonna agree with others, the bullet is seated too long (relatively way too long). With the original design, have used 1.250-1.257 col. A lot also depends on the specific pistol. Especially since there are numerous other types of 45 acp manufacturers.
Yendor357
Member
Diagnose first.
The old "Plunk Test" is invaluable with a semi alto pistol. And a revolver for that matter.
Then chronograph. Ammo in a semi auto does 2 things. The other is to cycle the gun. The slide has to fully retract, but not so fast that the next round can't be picked up by the magazine.
Start out shooting single shot style.
Then rectify.
The old "Plunk Test" is invaluable with a semi alto pistol. And a revolver for that matter.
Then chronograph. Ammo in a semi auto does 2 things. The other is to cycle the gun. The slide has to fully retract, but not so fast that the next round can't be picked up by the magazine.
Start out shooting single shot style.
Then rectify.
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