Thanks bam bam I appreciate it. I'm going to contact bmcm see if he can help.
Not only range rules but I believe an instructor has to realize that if someone has a thumb break holster, the fact of drawing and reholstering the straps can get in the way and there should be some thought towards that. I was chastised for having a thumb break holster during the class, because the instructor said the straps could get caught in the trigger and cause an accidental discharge.
I have practice with the 4516 - 1 but I guess I just haven't practiced everything.
BB thank you for all of that ,I own a number of 1911s as well as a number of DA/SA pistols including various CZs with and without decockers, a couple S&W 39s, a 6906, several PP series pistols, a P.38 and a few uncommon FN pistols that experimented with more of a hybrid approach.
I've carried various 1911s since I first started carrying concealed at age 21 - 35 years ago. I've carried a 1911 for the majority of that time and I conceal carry all day, every day.
Carrying a 1911 in condition 1 (cocked and locked with a round in the chamber) is by far the safest way to carry it. Carrying one in
Condition 2 (hammer down, safety off, on a loaded chamber) is by far the least safe method. Under stress you'll be using fine motor movements to try to cock the hammer without letting it slip, and you also have to successfully decock the pistol by lowering the hammer every time you do an administrative reload.
Condition 3 (hammer down, safety off, on an empty chamber) is safer than condition 2 as you are not putting a round in the chamber with each administrative reload, and readying the pistol for action under stress is done with large motor movement to rack the slide. The downside is that it is very slow. It has an undeserved reputation for being safer than Condition 1 due to policies some military units have in terms of requiring pistols to be carried in condition 3. But most military personnel are not using a service pistol in conditions where there is no prior warning of a threat, and many of the militaries that specify racking the slide to ready the pistol for action have multiple types in service. The IDF was a prime example as they needed a manual of arms that worked for a wide variety of surplus pistols in service.
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In terms of carrying a 1911 cocked and locked there are several safety benefits.
1) you never need to manipulate the hammer or rely on a decocker after an administrative or tactical reload. You just apply the safety. Period.
2) unloading is also straight forward. Drop the magazine, click the safety off, rack the slide to eject the round from the chamber and then visually inspect for an empty mag well and empty chamber. That's not significantly different than clearing a DA/SA pistol.
3) assuming you use a proper holster that covers the trigger, the pistol is still safe even in condition 0 (hammer cocked, safety off, on a loaded chamber).
4) the 1911 is one of the safest handguns to holster or reholster.
- as long as the grip safety is not depressed, the sear is still locked. Even if the safety some how came off (or you forgot to put it on safe), the pistol still will not fire even if there is an intrusion into the trigger guard that causes the trigger to be pulled as you reholster.
- you can also use your thumb to press forward on the top of the grip safety to ensure it is not depressed.
- alternatively you can hold your thumb over the top of the hammer. If you press too hard you will deactivate the grip safety, but the hammer is still under your control. If you hold the hammer without pressing it back, you have full hammer control plus the grip safety, plus the manual safety all preventing an AD while reholstering.
You don't have the same protection against an intrusion into the trigger guard when reholstering with a decocker equipped DA/SA pistol, unless you have a pistol with a decocking lever that is also a safety (I.e. the lever stays in the decocked position when you release it). Even then, you have to reach between you and the pistol to deactivate the safety to make the gun ready to fire.
The sad fact is that nearly all decocker/safety lever equipped SA/DA pistols have a lever that has to be moved up to take it off safe. It's much harder to do that with your thumb during a draw, which means most people are carrying a decocker equipped DA/SA or DAO pistol off safe, relying on good trigger discipline and the long and heavy DA trigger pull for safety during the actual draw.
They are still way ahead of the people carrying striker fired pistols with all the safeties tied to the trigger. In most cases it's also a trigger with a much shorter and lighter pull than a DA/SA pistol. Those pistols *are* an accident waiting to happen and they happen on a comparatively regular basis.
The results of those accidents are somewhat unfairly called "Glock Leg". Most Glocks can be equipped with a device on the back of the slide that prevents the final movement of the striker when it is pressed, which reduces the trigger guard intrusion risk when reholstering. However they are still no where as safe to reholster as a 1911.
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With a DA/SA or DAO pistol you need to hold your thumb over the back of the hammer to enable you to feel the hammer coming back if something is intruding into the trigger guard when you holster or reholster the pistol. Same with a DA/SA revolver.
How many shooters actually do that?
I would "NEVER " decock with a pistol in the holster or while I'm reholstering. In the near future I may be replacing the safety / decocker on myWith a DA/SA or DAO pistol that is not decocker equipped or has a decodkcing lever that does not do double duty as a safety (I.e. it pops back up when you release it), you need to hold your thumb over the back of the hammer to enable you to feel the hammer coming back if something is intruding into the trigger guard when you holster or reholster the pistol. Same with a DA/SA revolver.
If you do have a decocker equipped pistol you can do as you described and holster with the decocking/safety lever down, but then you have to also remember to deactivate the decocking/safety lever.
Interestingly, I often hear people claiming that shooters require more training to operate a 1911 safely. As your experience illustrates that's a misperception - a potentially life threatening misperception.
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With a 1911, the pistol is gripped and drawn so that as the pistol points down range, the thumb is placed on top of the safety lever with the safety still on "safe".
After the front sight comes on target and when you have made the decision to engage the target you depress the safety lever.
A couple hundred repetitions with a cleared pistol at home and then 100 or so rounds at the range, plus some periodic dry fire or range practice to keep the skill current and it'll be an automatic response.
Where it goes wrong is when ranges prevent people from practicing a draw from the holster. The shooter them has to substitute the low ready position. If they also make the mistake of keeping their thumb off the safety lever and placing it down under the safety lever until they are ready to fire. Often the RO will instruct them to keep the thumb off the safety so the RO can observe the safety is indeed on.
Either way, it leads to developing the bad habit of gripping the pistol with the thumb under the safety, which then requires a much more complex and involved movement to move the safety to the "fire" position. It also then requires the shooter to intentionally think about and remember to move the thumb up on to the safety and then depressed it to fire, rather than being an automatic response once the shooter makes the decision to fire.
Training a shooter to reholster the 1911 after the target has been engaged just requires training the shooter to activate the safety lever and move the thumb up between the hammer and slide to control the hammer and remove the web of the hand from the grip safety.
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In comparison, with a DA/SA decocker equipped pistol the shooter has to learn to operate the decocking lever and or decocking/safety lever (and understand the difference) for administrative reloads, for holstering, for readying the pistol to fire, for decocking after the target has been engaged and for reholstering.
The shooter also has to master both the first shot DA trigger pul and the SA trigger pull for every shot after that, including the first round after a tactical reload.
The shooter should also be trained to place the thumb over the back of the hammer to ensure it is not coming back when the pistol is reholstered.
That actually requires a lot more training.
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The ultimate outcome of all that training for officers transitioning from a DA revolver, was the rise in popularity of striker fired pistols with all the safeties tied to the trigger - like the Glock.
Since the shooter only has to operate the slide and the trigger , training is much easier. *BUT* it now places 100% of the safety on solid, 100% reliable trigger discipline.
Unfortunately there are a number of accidents related to trigger intrusion (including highly stressed officers reholstering post shoot with their finger still in the trigger guard, as well as pre- engagement accidents when a highly stressed officer using. A poorly designed retention holster with the relapses paddle in the same general area of the trigger, let's his finger follow from paddle to trigger during the draw.
That's an artifact of grossly inadequate training and poor systems integration of holster and pistol.
Agreed. What ever you shoot, you need to be properly trained to use it safely and be proficient with it.
A significant percentage of experienced shooters who shoot both DA/SA pistols and 1911s seem to gravitate toward the 1911 as their preferred pistol.
There are good reasons for that.
And also why the 4006
