Yes I'm done with this one.
4516-1 vs 1911 ??
- Thread starter Doc1500
- Start date
Yes I'm done with this one.
Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
I wouldn't carry a 1911 as a PD pistol any more than I'd drive a Model T as my regular transportation.
OK, I'm sure I'm going to ruffle some feathers here, so here goes..
I've been a law enforcement firearms instructor since 1980. I spent 25 years as a U.S. Customs Firearms Instructor. During that time we went through an evolution of several firearms types. When I first came on, the revolver was issued. Then the firearms policy was changed to allow personally owned semi-auto pistols. I had been a U.S. Army M.P., so I was familiar with the 1911 platform, hence a Colt Commander was my first personally owned pistol. Being the early 80's magazine capacity became an issue dealing with the then rising Colombian drug cartels. So a Browning Hi-Power became another carry gun, mostly for search warrant raids. Of course then 9mm was not a very effective cartridge, and I was still a believer in the "superiority" of the 45 ACP cartridge.
In 1986, I walked into my LGS and the owner said he was waiting for me to come in. Shoved a black PLASTIC handgun called a Glock at me. I was shocked that it was even a firearm. He had me sign a 4473, and take the pistol, told me to shoot the hell out of it. If I didn't like it bring it back, and if I did like it bring a check. I shot a 1,000 rounds of our then issued round, the Super-Vel JHP ammo. It was the widest hollow point I have ever seen on a commercial pistol round. The Glock 17 shot them all over two days. I took a check back and still have that Glock 17.
In 1989, the U.S.C.S. standardized their issue pistols nation wide by issuing the S&W Model 6906 9mm pistol. I still carried my Glock and 1911. We trained the Agent carrying the 6906 at the end of a stage of fire they were to check right and left, de-cock, then holster. Part of the training was to have the Agent to sweep the safety off after de-cocking. Thus putting the pistol back in a ready stage once holstered. There were a few reported Unintentional Discharges with 6906 by Agents who failed to de-cock the pistol before holstering.
In 1994, the personally owned firearms program went away. The U.S.C. issued Glock 17's to uniformed inspectors, and Glock 19's and 26's to plain clothed Agents and Air/Marine Officers. In the outset of the issuance of the Glock, there were Unintentional Discharges reported nation wide. All could be traced back to a finger on the trigger, or an intrusion by the holster thumb break strap or clothing into the trigger.
A study was then done to review Unintentional Discharges by U.S. Customs employees to see what type of firearm produced the most U.D.'s The research went clear back to the 1930's, and the number one weapon that produced the most U.D.'s, Drum roll please.....Double Action Revolvers!!! When the incidents were broken down even further, it was revealed that Officers cocking the revolver then keeping their fingers on the trigger accounted for the most U.D.'s on record.
I retired from the Service in 2005, after I retired the Service adopted another DA/SA pistol, the Sig P229 for ICE Agents. I now serve as a firearms instructor to the U.S. Department State's Global Anti-Terrorism Assistance Program. GATA uses the the Glock 17 platform in their training.
So to put this all into perspective, if your training, is poor your performance under stress will likely also be equally poor. So train with what works for you. If you want to try another platform great. But if you are going to defend your life with that platform, train with it extensively. Your life may depend on it.
I've been a law enforcement firearms instructor since 1980. I spent 25 years as a U.S. Customs Firearms Instructor. During that time we went through an evolution of several firearms types. When I first came on, the revolver was issued. Then the firearms policy was changed to allow personally owned semi-auto pistols. I had been a U.S. Army M.P., so I was familiar with the 1911 platform, hence a Colt Commander was my first personally owned pistol. Being the early 80's magazine capacity became an issue dealing with the then rising Colombian drug cartels. So a Browning Hi-Power became another carry gun, mostly for search warrant raids. Of course then 9mm was not a very effective cartridge, and I was still a believer in the "superiority" of the 45 ACP cartridge.
In 1986, I walked into my LGS and the owner said he was waiting for me to come in. Shoved a black PLASTIC handgun called a Glock at me. I was shocked that it was even a firearm. He had me sign a 4473, and take the pistol, told me to shoot the hell out of it. If I didn't like it bring it back, and if I did like it bring a check. I shot a 1,000 rounds of our then issued round, the Super-Vel JHP ammo. It was the widest hollow point I have ever seen on a commercial pistol round. The Glock 17 shot them all over two days. I took a check back and still have that Glock 17.
In 1989, the U.S.C.S. standardized their issue pistols nation wide by issuing the S&W Model 6906 9mm pistol. I still carried my Glock and 1911. We trained the Agent carrying the 6906 at the end of a stage of fire they were to check right and left, de-cock, then holster. Part of the training was to have the Agent to sweep the safety off after de-cocking. Thus putting the pistol back in a ready stage once holstered. There were a few reported Unintentional Discharges with 6906 by Agents who failed to de-cock the pistol before holstering.
In 1994, the personally owned firearms program went away. The U.S.C. issued Glock 17's to uniformed inspectors, and Glock 19's and 26's to plain clothed Agents and Air/Marine Officers. In the outset of the issuance of the Glock, there were Unintentional Discharges reported nation wide. All could be traced back to a finger on the trigger, or an intrusion by the holster thumb break strap or clothing into the trigger.
A study was then done to review Unintentional Discharges by U.S. Customs employees to see what type of firearm produced the most U.D.'s The research went clear back to the 1930's, and the number one weapon that produced the most U.D.'s, Drum roll please.....Double Action Revolvers!!! When the incidents were broken down even further, it was revealed that Officers cocking the revolver then keeping their fingers on the trigger accounted for the most U.D.'s on record.
I retired from the Service in 2005, after I retired the Service adopted another DA/SA pistol, the Sig P229 for ICE Agents. I now serve as a firearms instructor to the U.S. Department State's Global Anti-Terrorism Assistance Program. GATA uses the the Glock 17 platform in their training.
So to put this all into perspective, if your training, is poor your performance under stress will likely also be equally poor. So train with what works for you. If you want to try another platform great. But if you are going to defend your life with that platform, train with it extensively. Your life may depend on it.
I don't see why that would "ruffle" anyone's feathers. All of your post was informative, but I think that this is the key,
All too many people buy a firearm put a box or two of range ammo through it and think that they are ready to go.
In addition to live fire training, I do "dry fire" exercises including drawing and reholstering. As you mention above, I always decock my TDA Smiths before I reholster. As was explained to me there is a decent chance that you will shoot yourself in the leg (or somewhere) under the stress of reholstering after having to use your firearm to defend yourself if the hammer is cocked. The only way to reduce that risk is to decock first.
I practiced that until it was second nature.
As someone once said, "Amateurs practice until they get it right, professionals practice until they can't get it wrong."
All too many people buy a firearm put a box or two of range ammo through it and think that they are ready to go.
In addition to live fire training, I do "dry fire" exercises including drawing and reholstering. As you mention above, I always decock my TDA Smiths before I reholster. As was explained to me there is a decent chance that you will shoot yourself in the leg (or somewhere) under the stress of reholstering after having to use your firearm to defend yourself if the hammer is cocked. The only way to reduce that risk is to decock first.
I practiced that until it was second nature.
As someone once said, "Amateurs practice until they get it right, professionals practice until they can't get it wrong."
UltimaRatio
Member
I've always wondered if the real difference between the 1911 and the S&W 3rd gens is the amount of after-market support and gunsmithing knowledge the 1911 has.
Same reason I started the "Blueprinting" a 3rd Gen thread. Seems to me if a S&W 3rd gen was given the same love and care as a Wilson or a Nighthawk or whatever the comparison would be a lot closer.
Same reason I started the "Blueprinting" a 3rd Gen thread. Seems to me if a S&W 3rd gen was given the same love and care as a Wilson or a Nighthawk or whatever the comparison would be a lot closer.
I started my LE career carrying a 4566. Great pistol, reliable, well made. I still own and enjoy a few DA/SA S&W's, but I never fell in love with them. They are more nostalgic for me at this point.
On the other hand, I love the 1911 platform. I'd still be carrying one if I hadn't moved to a department that issues Glock. (now only carry Glocks on or off duty) My personal preference for a carry 1911 is one with a Colt series 80 style firing pin safety or a Swartz style like Kimber uses. A 1911 of this style is very safe to carry C&L with two external safeties and the internal FPS. It would take an act of God for the gun to "go off on it's own".
If I were looking for a carry 1911 these days I'd look at S&W, Colt and Kimber. (Their TLE series off a lot of features for the money.)
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On the other hand, I love the 1911 platform. I'd still be carrying one if I hadn't moved to a department that issues Glock. (now only carry Glocks on or off duty) My personal preference for a carry 1911 is one with a Colt series 80 style firing pin safety or a Swartz style like Kimber uses. A 1911 of this style is very safe to carry C&L with two external safeties and the internal FPS. It would take an act of God for the gun to "go off on it's own".
If I were looking for a carry 1911 these days I'd look at S&W, Colt and Kimber. (Their TLE series off a lot of features for the money.)
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Hey gang, just a quick update. My 4516-1 is on its way to bmcm to have the safety decocker changed over to spring loaded decocker only. Also the single recoil spring will be replaced with the nested spring setup.
Couple of weeks of waiting like a kid waiting for Christmas.
Couple of weeks of waiting like a kid waiting for Christmas.
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xtrtsqrt11
Member
I can understand how you must have felt. Having a situation happen that you haven't trained for is disconcerting.
However, good for you that you ARE training and learning the different things that can happen.
IIRC, Los Angeles Sheriffs carried their Beretta 92s with the safety engaged by policy and it was part of their training to flip the lever up as they prepared to fire. Kind of a reverse that a 1911 user does.
I remember reading several articles (in particular from Massad Ayoob) in which cop's lives were saved, when their gun was stolen and that safety gave them a chance to pursue other options.
The decocker only lever is a great choice for you IMO. Also training to just flip up the lever on the draw is an option.
My duty issue is a G22. I carried a 1911 because I shoot it much better. I found that I would sweep the safety off on the draw even with the Glock. Didn't really cause any problem so I just drove on...
Keep up the good work!!
Well, like I said above when I get it back from bmcm my worries are over.
No more off switch.
Draw and shoot.
rogerwnuss
Member
I think the 1911 just points more naturally..... maybe that's just me. But, you can train with and get proficient with either
Guns with safety/decockers are always carried when the grandkids and other youngsters are around.
Onshore or off.
The safety/decocker is off otherwise.
1911s are carried but just a stainless Ruger Officer model in 45ACP these days.
If Smith and all revolver grips felt like a 1911.....
Onshore or off.
The safety/decocker is off otherwise.
1911s are carried but just a stainless Ruger Officer model in 45ACP these days.
If Smith and all revolver grips felt like a 1911.....
HOUSTON RICK
Member
The S&W third gen 45 ACP guns are superlative and 80 years newer design than a 1911. Count me with Yoda, you cannot beat the history of the 1911, but I would prefer a S&W third gen for target shooting or in a firefight as I am more accurate probably due to third gen trigger and weight. It is getting hard to find third gen parts though. I have 3 1911's and like them too.
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