.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

[Absalom]

Ok, I see them now, very nice and discreet.
.......
Appears to be a commercial that entered GB thru civilian channels. It might be one commercially shipped to Wilkinson Sword in England. Or an American distributor and then exported. Sure doesn't look like it went to war. Maybe an officer's purchase since they had to supply their own sidearm.
......

This gun certainly did not formally enter military service, as the required military proofs and acceptance marks are not present. I only see the London proofhouse's view mark (crown over V) and on the barrel the proof mark (crown over GP, a bit mis-struck). As mentioned, an officer's private purchase is always a possibility.

 

[AlanDavid]

This gun certainly did not formally enter military service, as the required military proofs and acceptance marks are not present. I only see the London proofhouse's view mark (crown over V) and on the barrel the proof mark (crown over GP, a bit mis-struck). As mentioned, an officer's private purchase is always a possibility.

The U.K. agent for Smith and Wesson at this time was Chas Osborne & Co, Gunmaker. He had a factory in Birmingham and a retail shop in London. He was friends with Mr Wesson so that's how he became the agent for S&W in the United Kingdom. Chas Osborne went out of business around 1928. S&W were approached by Le Perssone & Co of 99 Cannon Street , London (a wholesaling and agency firm) to become there UK agent but were only prepared to give S&W one or two pages in their catalogue, so S&W said , no thanks. A. G. Parker which went on to become Parker Hale were appointed as the sole UK agents for S&W and remained so up to at least the 1970's.
This being the case I have never understood why Wilkinson Sword Co purchased the surplus 123 .455 revolvers in October 1914. Perhaps Chas Osborne turned the offer down and Wilkinson's picked them up by default?
Unfortunately, the Chas Osborne & Co records appear to be lost, I have put a bit of effort into trying to locate them, but the consensus is they no longer exist - pity.
Regards
AlanD
Sydney

 

[WCCPHD]

Ok, I see them now, very nice and discreet.

Oh yeah, great improvement w/o the hideous tacked on sight, albeit some use those and will pay for them.

Appears to be a commercial that entered GB thru civilian channels. It might be one commercially shipped to Wilkinson Sword in England. Or an American distributor and then exported. Sure doesn't look like it went to war. Maybe an officer's purchase since they had to supply their own sidearm.

The serial # however doesn't seem to correspond to any commercial shipments in the books. So a letter would reveal its provenance and be extremely interesting! Letters are currently only taking about 2 weeks.

I asked for a ship date from Roy Jinks and he replied today:

"Bill, .455 H.E. First Model serial 5642 is one of the rare commercial shipments. It was shipped in April 1915. I hope that this helps. Roy "

You were correct it was a commercial shipment.

I am curious if this adds to the collectibility of the gun, particularly since it was modified to .45 Colt.

Bill

 

[Hondo44]

Bill,

Thank you (and thank you Roy). The April 1915 ship date for 5642 gives us one more data point.

The dilemma: What we still don't know is which category 455 #5624 is from?

A Category 1. "44 1st Model TL" in the 44 serial range converted to 455 at the factory per Neil & Jinks identifies the 146 commercials from this category by serial #s and they shipped Oct I, 1914 and Jan I 1918. 5624 is not one of those numbers.

A category 2. "455 1st model TL" in the British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15 does not include 5624 which is too high for that range.

A category 3.A. "455 2nd model" in the range of 5624 is not a TL, unless one TL slipped thru with 2nd Model serial #. These shipped 1915 to 1917.

A category 3.B. 691 TLs only known to be assembled from April to Oct of 1916 in the 12 - 14,XXX serial range, and way too high for 5624. 345 sold commercially.

So once again we look to category 0. "Rare misc. early commercial production 44 TL 1st Models chambered in .455."
Including a pre Brit Contract special order TL subset of 25 standard .44 1st Model TLs in the .44 serial # range chambered in .455 with 5" barrels, shipped Nov. 1, 1912. Thx to Jim Fisher for bringing these to our attention and sharing documentation! See #5751 below.
A Scarce 5 Inch Triple lock shipped to Canada in April of 1915

 

[WCCPHD]

Bill,

Thank you (and thank you Roy). The April 1915 ship date for 5642 gives us one more data point.

The dilemma: What we still don't know is which category 455 #5624 is from?

A Category 1. "44 1st Model TL" in the 44 serial range converted to 455 at the factory per Neil & Jinks identifies the 146 commercials from this category by serial #s and they shipped Oct I, 1914 and Jan I 1918. 5624 is not one of those numbers.

A category 2. "455 1st model TL" in the British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15 does not include 5624 which is too high for that range.

A category 3.A. "455 2nd model" in the range of 5624 is not a TL, unless one TL slipped thru with 2nd Model serial #. These shipped 1915 to 1917.

A category 3.B. 691 TLs only known to be assembled from April to Oct of 1916 in the 12 - 14,XXX serial range, and way too high for 5624. 345 sold commercially.

So once again we look to category 0. "Rare misc. early individually produced commercial 44 TL 1st models chambered in .455." as the most likely category of production for 5624. Perhaps an over-run from the special order of 25 5" barreled 455 TLs identified by Jim Fisher, and also numbered in the 44 Spl TL serial range, but with a standard 6 1/2" barrel. Or just an individually ordered 455.

Thanks Jim,

I believe a letter is in order here.

Bill

 

[larry21556]

I have TL #1549, no caliber markings

 

[Valmet]

I've really been enjoying this thread Hondo, all this HE Mk II talk is making me think, maybe I need another one??

 

[AlanDavid]

This is one of the best threads on the forum.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

 

[red9]

Just received the letter on #5788. It letters as a commercial shipped to Hurd & Co, like Jim Fisher's, but on June 4, 1915. Part of a shipment of 5 guns. Didn't catch the mistake before, but the barrel is 6.5". So we have a Canadian military marked shipped commercially. Could the military have required the owners of personal guns to submit them for approval to carry?

Great survey with a lot of work on your part and a lot of participation by the Forum.

Bob

 

[RangeRover]

My .455

Here's my .455 Mark II Hand Ejector. Not mint at all. S/N is 30414.

Letter shows it being shipped Dec. 16, 1915 to Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cartridge in NY, agents for the British government.

British military markings, though carried in the conflict by an officer (field promotion) in the Canadian Engineers.

 

[Hondo44]

Just received the letter on #5788. It letters as a commercial shipped to Hurd & Co, like Jim Fisher's, but on June 4, 1915. Part of a shipment of 5 guns. Didn't catch the mistake before, but the barrel is 6.5". So we have a Canadian military marked shipped commercially. Could the military have required the owners of personal guns to submit them for approval to carry?

Great survey with a lot of work on your part and a lot of participation by the Forum.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Thanks very much for the followup information on your #5788. The order of 5 guns in the shipment is also very helpful.

I'm not that versed on the military markings but some here are.


The variations of the British Service revolver stampings seem almost endless.

These 455s can have Import, Proof, and Export stamps; just one or up to all three. The stamps also vary with the period in which they were done due to British changes in stamping requirements over the years, and whether or not they moved thru official channels.

We also find 455 revolvers which were not initially sold to the British military, but originally sold on the commercial market and only later entered military service.

These links are to threads that will help you with the various non-factory stampings on your 455:

Google images and definitions of British marks:
british proof marks - Bing images


Identify Hand Ejector Birmingham Marks - in the S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 section of Smith & Wesson Forum. This thread is located at:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...y-hand-ejector-birmingham-marks-new-post.html

 

[JayFramer]

The .455 was known as an excellent stopper in it's day.

I wouldn't hesitate to use that gun for nightstand use.

 

[AlanDavid]

Is it possible to determine the number of .455 triple lock revolvers and .455 second model revolvers that were made for commercial sale and not for military orders for the UK, Canada?

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

 

[Hondo44]

ONLY COMMERCIAL 455 TLs AND 2nd MODELS

1. Pre Brit contract ".44 Hand Ejector 1st Model" TLs chambered in 455 in the 44 HE serial # series:

Likely less than 100.


2. During Brit Military purchase production era ".44 Hand Ejector 1st Model" TLs converted to 455 in the 44 HE serial # series:

146 + 691*

*It is believed that an unknown amount of the 691 sold on the commercial market were then purchased by a British purchasing agent and made their way across the big pond in that manner, to get all stamped up for eventual military use.


3. "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 1st Model" TLs:

NONE


4. "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 2nd Model":

1105* 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216]. Several of these were then purchased by various US home guard units for use in the US.

* Not included in this number are 739 "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 2nd Model" revolvers chambered in 45 Colt presumably for the RCMP, and not part of the 14,500 Canadian military 455 Mk II purchases.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Back to the top.

 

[PJGP]

I have just seen .455" TL S/N 2013. It has no calibre markings and is in extremely good condition. The only non-factory markings are London commercial proof stamps. Is this normal for British contract TLs?

Peter

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Maybe for those guns outside the US. Most of the ones we see over here have been modified for .45 Colt or .45 ACP.

 

[PJGP]

Maybe for those guns outside the US. Most of the ones we see over here have been modified for .45 Colt or .45 ACP.

What I should have asked is: did the TLs have British military inspection and/or proof markings, as did the second (Mark II) model Hand Ejectors?

Peter

 

[regmag-621]

Jim,

I own:

four Triple-Locks in .455 and three 2nd Modells in .455:

T-Locks:
# 2373 found in Switzerland some weeks ago and I'm still working on the export papers -no Caliber markings-
# 3628 converted to .45LC (recessed perfect work) -no Caliber markings-
# 4534 -no Caliber markings-
# 7827 -from the .44 Spl run converted to .455 -no Caliber markings-

2nd Modell .455
# 29198 -with Caliber markings-
# 31782 converted to 45 ACP (rearside of the Cylinder turned off) -with Caliber markings-
# 66549 -with Caliber markings-


Best regards from Germany

Paul SWCA 1354

ps. I also have two T-Locks in .44 Spl and some 2nd and 3rd Modells in .44 Spl, if you need serial numbers and barrel length send an email.

 

[Hondo44]

What I should have asked is: did the TLs have British military inspection and/or proof markings, as did the second (Mark II) model Hand Ejectors?

Peter

Yes they do.

The variations of the British Service revolver stampings seem almost endless.

The 455s can have Import, Proof, and Export stamps; just one or up to all three. The export stamps especially vary with the period in which they were done due to British changes in stamping requirements over the years, and when the guns were exported from the UK; also whether or not they moved thru official channels.

We also find 455 revolvers which were not initially sold to the British military, but originally sold on the commercial market and only later entered military service and another reason for varied stampings.